To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

The head of Michaela is vile. She deserved all she gets

I have known calls for this (madrassa) type of education to be available in the UK which I doubt will ever happen

It already has @mids2019:

https://madrassah.co.uk/madrassah-directory/

@bombastix

Fascinating subject

I would add to your list scientific rationalism in that there is no empirical evidence of God and it has been apparent for some centuries the universe works on the basis of scientific laws which have consistently been shown to be correct .

My daughter came to her own considered conclusion that there was no God due to a fundamental acceptance of science and by asking questions that are hard to answer by religion. Why does God allow bad things to happen? Does the same God look after Jews and Muslims and so why did he allow October 7th and rh retaliation in his name involving people devout to him? If you don't believe in the right God do you go to hell?

She is 11.

Now if a Muslim child entertained such questions which would be the result of a rational critical mind then the family would berate the child and warn of the severe consequences of heresy. You are effectively through coercion depriving a child of the free choice to ask their own existential questions. I don't think this is correct and tantamount to control and coercion

I suppose there are similar arguments about Muslims being free to determine their own moral compass as it governed by their religion. If a Muslim agrees with pre marital sex, homosexuality, alcohol, liberal clothing, yet has a personal relationship with God can they claim to be Muslim? It's a bit of a philosophical question.

I think the pressures you mention that have led to the decline of Christianity will ultimately impact other religions though it may take a few generations (in western nations). I guess what you see currently is a huge amount of resistance to these pressures though often under the guise of claiming any criticism of religion is hate speech.

Another possible factor in the decline of Christianity is the removal of blasphemy as a crime. Blasphemy is legal for all religions.

I think that there are some Muslims that will aggressively want blasphemy laws as a protection of religion. I suppose they would argue blasphemy is hate speech and prosecuted by law but that is simply not the case. We need to defend this freedom of speech and not fear horrendous reactions like Charlie Hebdot.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

My error.

Questions like Ofsted, national curriculum , phse spring to mind with these places.

@mids2019 yes it is about giving children the ability to think for themselves, and the idea which goes back a long way to the Enlightenment. We tend to take those cultural imperatives quite lightly in the UK if we know of them at all.

Yet what is interesting is how very quick this collapse of Christianity was in England (and to a similar extent Western Europe). There are probably many reasons, but at least one is WW2 because the limits of Christianity really were apparent after that and I think those societies realised they needed to build their morals into something else and they realised life was precious. The idea of the meek inheriting the earth was absurd. What had happened was a great tyranny had nearly destroyed Europe and there was a systematic destruction of the Jewish people. What comfort is God in all that? Very little.

That's not really a shared history with migration that came in the 60s onwards from places with more er muscular ideas of religion. It's one of the things that gets missed; that migration came from places that didn't basically have this devastating experience which is a huge moral challenge.

Anyway I have drifted! Freedom of thought is a gift. Your daughter sounds smart. Good for her and you.

Do you know her personally?

@bombastix

I'll leave it up to 'RE teachers to explain to her what the angle Gabriel was playing at telling Mary she was giving birth to the son of God then appearing to a man a cave years later to tell him something different.....cognitive dissonance is at the heart of religious thought to some extent.

I think the term muscular was an interesting one and yes Christianity has lost its muscle and has accepted this but other faiths definitely haven't and Islam wants more muscle. I think this is a drive for secularization which we would embrace while accepting and honouring Christian heritage and it's influence on our history in the UK. This does not mean a huge number of active Christians (and in a generation there may not be) but recognising our country historically has been shaped by religion for blood or for ill.

WW2 was a profound conflict but one that was thought to be one fought by two imperialist colonial European powers by those in the middle East and North Africa and there was a dislike of both sides in the conflict as it swept through the region. My grandfather served in what is known as the Palestinian Mandate and the post war international agreement for this region to become the modern state of Israel (caused by WW2) is the greatest legacy of the war to some Muslims (they are not exactly fans I believe).

I think this explains some of the lack of commubity integration e.g. remembering war dead on armistice day and an aversion to our armed forces. There is historical huge dislike of Britians role in the world and it worrying UK citizens feel like this about the country. I think assuming a UK identity means a respect for the country's history and place in the world including its western democratic partners.

Around 1/3 of people think Islam is a threat to the British way of life and there was one survey suggesting more than half of people thought it a threat to western democracy. Do we hurl the term 'bigot', 'Islamophobe', 'racist' at these people or do we stop and think of we have a concern shared by significant numbers of people do we stop and talk more deeply about those concerns and not immediately dismiss the holders of those views as far right racists?

Addressing the concern I think is partly addressed by the stance eavesdropping should be secular and we need to ensure the mainly secular nature of country with its associated freedoms isn't encroached by any religion.

education I don't care shout eavesdropping?

@mids2019 - I think what you say below is wise. Basically you cannot after the liberalisation of England in the 1960s suddenly say that there should be a kind of parallel system to address the needs of a more vigorous form of religion. I think there are 3 million Muslims in the UK and obviously the very stupidest thing we could do is to structure education or other social requirements around it. The UK is mostly a culturally Christian country which in practice is mostly secular in behaviour. It is now also multicultural which matters. It matters a great deal then that there is not effective religious primacy either by law or by social pleading.

The submissions in that sense in Michaela were quite concerning; because the first thing that happened was as immediate need for special prayer compared to the Christian child who could apparently pray silently at any time. Not only did this submission sidestep the idea of prayer as something necessary at all, it immediately demanded time and resources to avoid apparent discrimination. That is not law but social pleading. The result in Michaela was absolutely right - I share nothing in common with KB and her educational ethos (would not send my children there) but if we do think that children should be educated in a way that does not discriminate then her approach was right. She could never have said yes. The fact that there was s degree of violence and threat as a consequence tells you that it is more necessary than ever to maintain the law and not social pleading which in this case became a strict demand very fast.

The adults in this case bear all the responsibility for this mess. If you are the kind of person who must show your goodness or religious compliance conspicuously then that is not being good or moral. It is just conformity, and asking others to conform to improve your piety/zealousness/social control/honour/standing is thoroughly regressive. Particularly for women and children who typically get the sharp end if they don't.

Do you support bomb threats on schools and racial harassment of teachers who work for her?

Good points above. I always quite an optimist and think that most of the 3m muslims in the UK will become secular anyway over time. It is very very hard to keep traditional ways going in a society that has freedom. Some groups manage it - Jehovah's Witnesses, some cults, Plymouth Brethren, some very ultra-orthodox jews, but it is not easy to keep teenagers sequestered, separate and apart so as not to be influenced by secular Western values.
I think about half the UK says it is atheist and about 47% are Christian but plenty of those are fairly secular Christians so most of us really fall into the category of one or the other. In a sense for most of the UK islam is de minimis even if that does not seem so in a few areas like London and particularly near where I live which is probably one of the most mixed areas of the UK with a lot of hindus (25% of the borough), lots of NW London jews, muslims and many others so for me these issues are more relevant than people who live eg in Northumberland where I am from which is something like 98% white and about 93% atheist or Christian.

I am not surprised the court supported the school in this case and all parents know what the school is like before they send their children there and 50% of the school is muslim so clearly vast numbers of parents had absolutely no problem with no prayers at lunch times. In fact it is probably better from a muslim point of view to have a strict school with presumably no sex, alcohol or drugs at lunch times and no prayers, than many prayers but lots of the sex drugs etc of many a more liberal school.

Not expressly relevant but go to 57minutes in on this to hear the kind of influences some children have at home in terms of some men's views https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/minted-minds/conversations-that-matter-WsAC4UBleP3/#google_vignette

@Xenia

some interesting points.

I think increasing secularization would be welcome but we have to consider that because immigration and biirth rate the number of Muslims is going to increase. The reasons that there is such an inhomogeneity in Muslm population in localities is that simply Muslims tend form quite concentrated communities mainly in urban areas. Having a prevelant Muslm community allows some barrier to the secular pressures you mention.so

I do think the resistance to secularization is intense though and Islam used the same strategies as the ultra conservative religions and cults you mention. Ostracism, even
shame are powerful tools. Groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses survive through insularity and being opaque to the community at large and we see the same with some Muslims.

we have to be careful not to teach the levels of polarisation that have been seen in France where the far right does very well relatively in anti Mulsim feeling and I think this is driven by the fear of a secular state being threatened.

One thing I did consider was that when historically you have large Muslim minorities then you often have a split in state where there has to be a regions state to accommodate Islam. India is an example with a split into India and Pakistan which was quite violent, Yugoslavia split and the Muslim community gained its own state effectively. Turkey has become more Islamic in nature with secular values again felt to be a threat.

Obviously we are a long way from that in the UK but this shows you have to be realistic about multi relgous and multicultural states and there has to be a robust framework to allow it to work and that includes such fundamental things such as this of law.

@mids2019 to be honest reading your post all I could think of was ultimate freedom doesn't exist and people who believe it does, are kidding themselves OR are benefitting from the freedoms given to them. However, someone else will be paying for those freedoms. The price being erosion of at least some level of their beliefs or identity or tradition.

I find this interesting as I believe in England and Wales 'secular' schools are required by law to provide daily collective worship. Unless this has changed?

Also there are many faith schools and sometimes there is no alternative but to send a DC there considering the lack of choice many/most? parents have when applying for schools. My DC is at a RC school and a lot of time is taken up with religion. They pray 4 times a day as one example.

So not quite sure how in practice it is 'protected and enshrined in law that all children should have unfettered access to education without the constant interruption and interference of prayer time'

@Foxesandsquirrels

It's an interesting point that a free society needs compromise from all citizens with regard to their own culture and beliefs. The issue with religion is in a fundamental sense the devout won't compromise; history is littered with martyrs.

If compromises aren't reached you have an inherent tension within the state and you can see multiple examples around the world.

To an extent Muslims make compromised when living in a largely secular country but these are compromises in reality they dislike. I think ultimately faiths want legal protection which in our constitution isn't given.

We don't have blasphemy laws
Divorce is legal
Alcohol and gambling is legal
We have liberal towards sexuality

I think these are examples of areas where some Muslims would ultimately like to change to support the continuance of their faith. It must be extremely difficult living what we would term a puritan lifestyle in a country not geared up to it.

I talked to a devout Muslim one day and he explained how sinful the UK in general was and it is a continuous battle to shield himself from activities he were an afront to him and God

@WatermelonWaveclub

I think a lot of faith schooling is a legacy of more religious times and in terms of Christian faith schools there has been a transition from active worship to ethos if anything.

I don't think simply because we have legacies from a very religious past we should set up faith schools for other faiths without very careful thought.

The other interesting point is the pupil was encouraged to pray in the playground by a visitor to the school. As the school suggests pupils are constantly supervised it's odd that nothing was said to the visitor and pupil at the time he/she was encouraging prayer in the playground.

I agree with your point. But many posters seem to have the idea that all DC are getting an education free from religion or at least those who's parents don't want religion as part of their education. We need to look at what is happening in many schools where Christianity is a part of the schooling to a smaller or greater extent.

@mids2019 this is my point. Free society is a myth. There is always someone that will lose something they were able to do before, in an attempt to give a freedom to someone else. Deciding who loses something they used to be able to do/can do elsewhere freely is the difficulty. This is why what Michaela School does is so difficult and the letter Katharine wrote in response is brilliant.
Whether we like it or not, the country is CofE/Christian. The moral values seen across the country aren't in line with that either. Attempting to give freedom to everything and everyone is fine, but there are consequences to everything. There's no ultimate freedom, it just doesn't exist and it seems to be uncomfortable fact for many in this country.

At my DD's faith school there is active worship, prayers 4 times a day, Mass a couple of times a term plus services in the school chapel. Religious studies for 2 and a half hours a week.

@WatermelonWaveclub

If you do have religious education Christianity 'fits' in better as we are a Christian country.

The problem with Islamic faith schools is ultimately you are enforcing a religion which can't be followed to an extent Muslims want due to the nature of our society.

@Foxesandsquirrels

Absolutely agree with your thoughts on freedom.

I guess Muslims feel they are not truly free to practise their religion as to do it in a manner suitable to them then it has to be in an Islamic society.

I suppose the lack of freedom manifests itself in not having guarantees for prayer time, lack of calls to prayer etc. but as you say there is always a compromise. If the compromise is to difficult then division in society becomes more likely which is not where we should be going.

Another question is to what extent Islam holds pupils back at school. It's noted that educational performance of Muslims isn't as good as their non Muslim peers at a population level and I dont think this is down to discriminatory marking.

The over concentration on faith means that pupils put faith first and education second. As long as you are an observant Muslim then qualifications though important maybe a secondary consideration. We also have what some would refer to as a western syllabus with not a lot of focus on the regions where Islam originated or their languages.

Maybe some Muslims are prepared to compromise faith schooling as they are starting to realise religious zeal does not necessarily correlate with learning goals

I like the fact we have choices in the UK. I accept that London where the school of this thread has vastly more choice than say NE England where I am from, but there can be choices. There is always a choice of home education for example (which i think is banned in Germany).
As the UK is about 96% atheist/christian combined together is it not surprising if most state schools are either secular or C of E or Catholic. However we do have jewish muslim and hindu state schools too. A lot of them will be not too far from where I live which is not very far from the Michaela school as it is a very mixed area.
I believe in freedom for parents and that includes their right to bring up their child (as long as complying with the law) in the way they think is best even if that is utterly at odds with my own views. I don't everyone necessarily shares my views on freedom. However my freedom comes with my right to tell all religions from the Jehovah's witnesses to any other religion that they are wrong to go for the lack of equality they hold so dear.