To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

This.

Schools have RE lessons to teach the factual aspects of faith and how to critically question them. The lessons are part of opening young people's minds and expanding perspectives.

Ritual group prayer can be viewed as dogma. The prayers are done unquestioningly and the frequency and ritual is dictated to by religious authority and parents

I think schools have to question the suitability of the latter when it is known the children praying are not doing it out pure choice (or indeed having a personal communication with God) but out of adherence to dogma with all the associated suppression of free thought and will.

Many strict Muslim families are extremely anxious that the ritualistic parts of their religion can be suppressed as to them it is showing that social forces are more powerful than God. When your religion teaches damnation is the result if lack of faith (bible too) if you are devour you would naturally worry about your children intensely.

The perpetuation if faith is obviously helped by faith schools to limit questioning if faith or external influences but there is quite rightly restrictions on the number of new faith schools being established.

If devour parents aren't given the option of faith schooling there may be a lot of anger towards secular ethos schools; possibly with really bad results

This was a matter of priority.

(And, like Puzzled, I also mentioned the vegetarian food in one of my posts - it was one of the ways that the children were encouraged to share their lunchtimes because it stopped the "Oh - you're eating pork" sort of divisiveness. )

The aggression wasn't the starting point - but rightly, it was made the finishing point. "This far and no further. It stops now!"

I agree. Religion is a personal matter, not a public one.

Racism on threads like this?

What about the racism which the mother and daughter brought to the door of a black teacher, including vandalism (criminal act) of this school? You could also say they were racist towards other Muslim students who weren't as haram as they were, didn't pray as many times a day as they did, and who wanted to 'shock horror' sing in a choir.

I suppose in your eyes, it's only really racism if it's towards a brown or black person, by a white or other colour (but not by a brown or black person) race.

@mids2019 / your last line is rather dubious! Secular schools do not have to accommodate religion. Other schools may. This whole case proves exactly what the limit is. If religious observance is the priority then religious people can find schooling to support that.

Our society is not overtly religious and that battle is hard won over centuries. Man made arrangements over another set of man made arrangements

But this school is secular so there is no need to hear the student voice or preference regarding their religious observations in school because there shouldn’t be any.

I’m intrigued by the idea that the children should be encouraged to see an individual and not a member of a religion, and I can see the pros and cons of this

I am glad the court case was heard and a judgment made because we live in a fair and democratic society and we should be able to question and challenge the laws of our country. (I am also a supporter of financial aid because challenging laws and rules shouldn’t be the preserve of the wealthy).

If history has taught us anything it’s how dangerous religious extremism is, so I think it’s right we do question how do we balance the rights of the individual to practice their faith against the rights of those with other faiths /no faith and also the state’s secular laws.

Correct decision. Michaela is a secular school. The student knew this when she applied and was accepted. The so-called prayer ban occurred because of pupils' (including the claimant) intimidating and aggressive behaviour towards staff and other same-faith pupils whom they deemed less observant than they considered acceptable—in other words, bullying others via their (shared) religion. The claimant admitted that not having designated prayer time in school didn't bother her until the ban became absolute (directly linked to and because of her 'gang's behaviour); she'd just prayed at home after school instead. The school was forced to act after large groups began praying outside on the school grounds in direct contravention of school rules and as part of an orchestrated campaign of intimidation, including death threats against staff and a bomb hoax targeting the school. The only criticism of the school was that the claimant was summarily excluded from the school while he involvement was investigated.
And yes, the claimant was funded by Legal Aid

Link to judgement https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Judgement-R-v-Michaela-Community-Schools-Trust.pdf

I agree - I am a practising Christian (and in fact, a lay minister in my church), but would never claim that religious dogma had a place in our schools (or other institutions).

I did sent my children to a faith school- but it was because the discipline and ethos of tolerance were what I wanted for them. It was this strict disciple which gave good results.

'Natural consequences' sounds a bit violent, so I wouldn't go that far. The mother should learn that she could send her children to a religious school instead of trying to force a secular school to change its ethos to fit her personal beliefs.

IMO, it's wrong to knowingly send your child to a secular school and use them to challenge that secularism. It smacks of a kind of entryism and an attempt to impose religion on an institution. IIRC, one of the main problems here was once one girl started praying in the school grounds, others started to join in and this created an environment of obligation and judgement for those Muslim students who didn't pray. It was a clear challenge to the atmosphere of academic primacy the school had successfully created.

@Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain I did not even comment on the case. But threads like this bring out the racists. Just read the thread.

Schools have RE lessons to teach the factual aspects of faith and how to critically question them. The lessons are part of opening young people's minds and expanding perspectives

Apologies for being a bit off topic, but while I agree with the principle here I'm not sure even RE "education" is safe

But then I was taught it by someone (not muslim this time) who regarded the whole thing as an opportunity to gain brownie points from her religious leader for creating conversions

Ha ha! You are very funny. The hardline Muslims I know of (and I've known a couple of them), they don't brook their children being less religious than they as a family or if they do, it's accepted for a period of time, but when e.g. marriage comes into question, the child is expected to do as they say, or be banished from the family, or to have lots of arguments around this.

Of course though, some children of some families are more religious than others. I don't believe that secondary school is the time or place though for them to be indoctrinated by their peers into becoming stricter or not in following their religion. As I've said before on this thread, school is for learning.

IIRC, an RE teacher was very violently attacked a few years ago for 'disrespecting Islam.' The 'disrespect' was teaching about other religions to Islamic students and for being a non-Muslim teaching about Islam.

I guess that would have been this one, @EsmaCannonball?

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/teacher-subjected-to-brutal-attack-four-muslims-jailed-6405727.html

A successful school considers respect & tolerance, and looks for ways to accommodate preferences where possible

When it comes to religious practices I don’t agree with accommodating preferences where possible. Respect that these kids are Muslim/Jewish/Hindu/Sikh/Buddhist etc etc and this is what they believe and celebrate. We respect everyone’s beliefs etc etc. we don’t need areas for kids to break off to carry out ablutions and prayers. Or for Jewish kids to take longer in the loo because they need to say a prayer beforehand etc. School is about general education and life skills. We don’t need to be doing all this accommodation imo.

Oh, that's always interesting to hear about other religions, and what people get up to in their spare time off MN (something which I keep telling myself I must do more of, not flounce though!).

Yes, the cut to legal aid is a serious step backwards for the country.

I would like all schools to be non religious and only teach religion as a factual subject - but I don't see the problem with providing a space for students to pray if they choose to. It's all very well saying go to a different school if you don't like it but that's not always easy when you might not live near another school or you might not get into the school you really want or the only other option might be a failing school. There are not endless choices of good schools to cater for all, close to everyone.

It sounds like there are huge problems at this school though and it is ruled with an iron fist - pupils not allowed in groups of more than 4, have to be silent in corridors. I think they are tackling this all wrong if they think banning kids from practising their religion, keeping them in silence and away from each other is going to help bring harmony. They need to tackle individual issues on a case by case basis and not have these mass rulings IMO. They need to increase empathy and understanding not make divisive rulings.

I wouldn't want my kids at this school, it might be great academically but it sounds like there are major social issues.

Lots of people like the school because it allows moderate muslims (muslims are half the school ) to fight against more extreme ones and their children will not be forced into being ultra religious - that is seen as a plus point not a negative one and I agree with that. I think the judgment is worth reading by anyone who has time. https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Judgement-R-v-Michaela-Community-Schools-Trust.pdf

And, like I said, your view of racism differs to mine.

You are seeing racism as mostly against black or brown people. I am seeing it and indeed have seen it and experienced it myself by those colours against myself, who is white, but possibly Jewish on my nana's side. In fact, when I was 15/16 and looked quite Jewish (curly darker hair) I was verbally abused by 2 teenage boys on a bus and called a 'Jewish bitch', this really shocked me because we didn't really live in a Jewish area, though a short bus/car ride away, there were Jewish people living and working there. They probably called me this because they'd been trying to chat me up and had failed.

@Itsdeepitsblue exactly! In some Islamic countries (example Maldives) it is prohibited to display or openly practise a different religion. Imagine going to a Maldivian school and reciting "The Lord's Prayer" or carrying a bible. Not the point of this thread, I know.

That is disgusting.

One reason I don't like religion to be discussed in e.g. workplaces is one day I was in work with 2 Muslim young men, both of whom from the outside you'd say were moderate Muslims, both dressed in Western clothes, drunk alcohol, took illegal drugs, slept with white women before marriage.

One day at lunch we were talking about honour killings as I'd recently seen 'Murdered by my Father' about an honour killing and had read about the case. I asked both of them if they'd ever do this and both of them were silent. So they didn't say that they would never do this. From that day forward, I lost a bit of respect for them.

One of them, however, he was lovely to me, when I was subjected to abuse from a strange mad man I'd been dating and who proceeded to email my office (!) with what I'd done, luckily I'd handed in notice and was leaving anyway. He was utterly sympathetic to me, really kind and actually took me out for a friendly coffee and told me real men didn't behave like this man had done.

@bombastix

I think one elephant in the room is that there are 4 million Muslims in this country and just over 100 Islamic schools. 40 000 Muslims per school.

Granted these are not all children but it can be seen there is a huge demand for Islamic schools and I see that in my own small town.

There is a Muslim community but no faith school and the local government has refused one for decades. The frustration amongst the Muslim community is palpable.

You therefore get parents wanting a devout education adhering to the tenets of Islam having to send their children to secular schools. The parents will support anything to change the ethos of the school and I wonder if this court case is perhaps an example of that

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Wow....I guess my children are lucky!

I guess mine go to a secular school and I don't think the RE teacher is that religious. It religion and world views now...(times change)