To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

The teacher who was racially abused was Black. The child was quite happy to pray outside school times until an Imam suggested she pray in the playground. This, plus the other court case and the bullying and intimidations seems to me like radicalisation by the cleric and the parent. She is doing her GCSE's so was quite happy at the school for 5 years until this guy turned up. The issue isn't so much the praying but that the ban came as a result of bullying and intimidation. Its not little White Christian children who are their educational prospects damaged by this girl it is Muslim children, in a poor borough who have got into a very demanding school with excellent results who are going to have their chances of being educated out of poverty damaged by her and her friends, and now, her sibling.

Nope. As said multiple times on here, its not appropriate in a school setting when it impacts on others. We have similar at my large company. Muslim employees taking breaks for prayers during the day - a lot of whom take far more than 2-3 minutes, and I’m pretty sure a lot of children would string these prayers out too. Want religion to play a big part in childrens’ school day? Send them to a school which practices it, and don’t impose on others which don’t….

The difficulty with faith schools (any faith schools) is that they can become grounds for radicalisation and extremism. This can lead to violence.

It's a proven fact that when children mix with others of different colours and creeds, they become more understanding of other people in general. In Ireland during the Troubles, both sides were very careful not to let Catholic and Protestant children mix, because they didn't want them to see each other as human and to become friends (which on occasion happened). It was necessary to separate them to maintain the conflict and to be able to paint their "enemies" as "other".

It is a way also of strengthening one's own group and it's practiced worldwide by people of all faiths/ tribes/ languages etc. It's divisive. When we have a large multicultural population as in the UK, we can't risk this happening. The risks of very serious civil disorder are huge.

My observant Jewish friends went/ send their children to "ordinary" school during the weekdays, and to Hebrew School, Synagogue schools one evening and at the weekend (during the service, IIRC - like Sunday school) to share the things which were of particular importance to their faith.

There is no reason why Muslim children shouldn't be similarly taught.

Time and money.

Our education system is underfunded to begin with, and money is being wasted on this rubbish!

This has nothing to do with genuine faith and devotion to God. It is a power play, and just as bullying and dangerous in its way as throwing bottles and absuing people.

I think the only way to evaluate this one properly is to actually be in the school at the time.
I cannot see anything wromg with ptaying at break. Ok, on top of their blazers maybe does not show the utmost respect for the school, but they do, in genetal, treat those blazers roughly around here too, at least in summer.
For me it would be whether this action draws a difference between pupils, which is what Michaela school said.
Like there are two scenarios.

1. Children pray, others see, they ask, they talk about, they learn about each others culture and continue to intetact happily with all other pupils.
2. Children pray, they become separated from the others, they become friends mostly with their same faith pupils, they do not interact much with the other pupils.

This happens in my DD secondary, and they do not have any prayer ban or regulation. But she tells me most pupils make friends groups that include only their same faith/ background. That is not really inclusive. It would be much more desirable if friends groups had a diverse background/ faith. I am positive Michaela school observed version 2 and decided to take action. If the parents that raise the claim against the school do not approve of no- praying in school to the point of taking them to court, I do not think they should be sending a second child there? I actually do not get why they do not move their first child to other school? It makes zero sense to me.

This is an interesting point about diverse friendship groups. People love to say that people of faith (in this case Muslims) isolate themselves and don’t make diverse friends. But at the same time people on this thread are saying send your kids to a faith school. Well a lot don’t want to do that. They want their kids to be in a diverse school and also for their faith and beliefs to be respected. Additionally how many people have no friends that are Muslim or non white. How many people accept friends that don’t drink or have different values to them regarding relationships etc. (yes I know many do but from the views put out on this thread it shows that clearly the majority don’t). Muslim kids often don’t want to party or drink and often those that do won’t be wanting to hang around with them. It’s not a one way street.

But what about all the other requirements and time for other religions prayers of every other religion?

If you are going to allow this to take place for one religion, it would have to be offered to ALL religions therefore taking up huge swathes of the school day - or the school would be sued for discrimination, quite rightly.

We can not introduce prayer time throughout the school day in any school - it is detrimental to the children. It is detrimental to their ability to think critically and independently and it fosters division.

I can not express to you how important this is if you wish to live in a cohesive, safe and peaceful society.

Many of my Muslim friends love to party I find your comment quite racist and distasteful.

What the Michaela Head says about this:

"A great part of the School’s success depends on minimising the distinctions and
divisions between the children and promoting social and cultural integration
between them. Children are keenly aware of differences between them. Without
strict boundaries, they will leverage those differences to jockey for social standing by, for instance, looking down at and belittling other children who don’t conform to what are considered to be the ‘correct’ norms or at other children whose families can’t afford the same luxuries as their family can. These problems can be particularly acute in a school that is as diverse, multi-racial and multi-faith as this one. Without corrective action, children inevitably end up separating themselves into social groups along the same dividing lines that separate groups in wider society. For instance, children with a shared religion will form a particular social group…There is of course othing wrong with children wishing to spend time with others who share the same background, but my experience of working in other schools, and that of my colleagues, is that – if left unchecked - this can develop into social stratifications which are damaging to standards of behaviour and to a ollective ethos.

The School’s approach to tackling such worrying divisions is to aggressively
promote integration between different faiths, cultures and ethnic backgrounds
through the notion of the Team. This ethos infuses all of the School’s practices and policies at all of the different levels of the school”

This is one of the reasons for the ban on children socialising in groups of more than 4. It's also intended to help prevent children from being excluded and isolated on their own.

All of these issues regarding religion are pro social. What they say is, to be a good Christian Muslim Jew or Hindu I need this. I don't think there has ever been legal case that said a public institution like a school had a positive duty to do that. It was always within the school's discretion.

This case is pretty interesting on what it means more widely. Basically religious accommodations are at the discretion of the school. They don't have to happen. So for the relatively extreme element that backed and pushed this case forward, they will have got a perverse result for them, because it is worse than before.

Matters re diversity and social inclusion are not as important as delivering education. That seems to me to be something that is not going to change. An attempt to say "but I am excluded" has been firmly placed where it belongs; on the individual conscience of the person who is religious. I don't think that is going to change unless the government legislate otherwise.

Yes I agree with this post ^ if anything it’s now a green light to encourage schools legally to be free of any religious dogma.

Religion does not and should never trump the right of children to have a broad and inclusive education.

That right is protected and enshrined in law - and all children should have unfettered access to education without the constant interruption and interference of prayer time.

This can be achieved outside of school hours if desired.

Having read the judgment, my main takeaway is that Michaela sounds like some kind of dystopian nightmare! The level of control is hideous!

Also this was argued by Jason Coppel I think who is a very smart guy; say what you like about the head but she knows how to pick a good barrister. I wouldn't send my child to Michaela, but it's fair the head runs the place as her school with her ethos. That should not be some sort of left right issue. Other schools will have a different way of managing religious needs at their discretion. This is reasonable for them too.

Oh dear.

What a shame.

Never mind . . .

You have every right to find @Custardcream84 's comment "quite racist and distasteful".

And @Custardcream84 has an equal right to her opinion.

This is what integration and acceptance involves. Knowing that not everyone has the same views as yourself, but respecting their right to have them, and to voice them.

So we should stop doing something because a minority of people make threats about it. We should not be chaning policy because a small number of bullies want it to happen.

God, i loathe religion.

It should be wiped off the face of the earth.

There's absolutely nothing else that perpetually causes so much aggro to humans, globally.

War, genocide, the fight for land/resources, and Christ knows what else.

I wouldn't send my son there, it would be a bit full-on for him.
But the head gets results!

So the children weren't TOLERANT of other Muslim children's desire to not be as devout and so BULLIED the other children and RACIALLY ABUSED a teacher hardly an advertisement for their cause. Is this what devout religion produces?

Have RTFT and it's an interesting debate all round, often verging on the circular, but we humans are like that.

A bigger picture observation - there is currently a real uptick in the "spiritual battle" for our souls worldwide. Many faiths are claiming persecution, and in the US some of the evangelicals are actively praying that the Middle East will erupt because Jesus will return.

I'm on the woo side myself (the accessories are cooler 😉) so I'm going straight to the hell I don't believe in, and I've had some local fundies almost salivating in glee at the prospect.

I'm baffled how something we have precious little concrete evidence of drives so much hate and turmoil on the off chance that one has backed the right beardy Big Daddy. Or why we need the approval of such to be decent humans (or else).

I mean, it is all bonkers really, isn't it?

And if Holy War is an objective as we self fulfill ourselves into the end times it's going to be a bumpy ride. I'm opting out.

Saying all Muslims hate partying and their white friends won’t like them is racist.

Its not okay.

You should spend more time challenging such comments, and bias rather than posting it’s okay to be racist.

No one speaks for ALL Muslims. Some of my most lively and lovely friends were born Muslim. It’s wrong to make such broad, inaccurate assumptions.

many of my Muslim friends do too what’s your point. My point is that for those who may be conservative everyone who on the one hand tells them to integrate but on the other tells them to go to a faith school and not be part of society.

Surely you must see that a faith school for a devout Muslim is a far better choice for them.

We can’t accommodate every faith under the sun during the school day. How is that unreasonable?

Do you think Muslims praying in school is a new thing? I went to a very well known private girls school in London and 24 years ago was given a small room to pray in every lunch time when I asked. They also did a Muslim, Christian and Jewish assembly every week for those who wished to attend and they also held special assemblies/prayers for other religious groups. It’s called respecting peoples beliefs. It didn’t encroach on anyone else. It’s not that deep.

My husband went to an inner city comprehensive and also got space to pray 20 years ago. And this was in the peak of Islamaphobia with 9/11 and the Iraq war. 20% of the world are Muslim and we live in a global economy. It’s not new for some of those Muslims to ask to pray. It’s part of their day. It’s not ‘preparing students for the real world’ to restrict these things.

lol I literally said in my original post Muslim kids often don’t want to drink etc. does often mean all Muslims??? Can you comprehend. You literally proved my point by saying devout Muslims should go to a faith school. My point is they shouldn’t have to and that they get accused of isolating themselves when it’s a two way street.