To think that the mother/daughter duo who took Michaela to court should face some natural consequences?

[KTheGrey]

Apparently the mother involved wants to send her younger child to the school she finds so unsatisfactory in September. I don't think this is reasonable. I understand the logic of leaving a child at a school where they are established, but she should be expected to find a school she likes better for a younger sibling, surely.

She also intends to bring another suit, presumably tax payer funded again. I think that she should be expected to pay in full for any further suit she brings against the school. She could apply for costs if she wins.

Mummy also couldnt care less about the rights of other children who were at the school to not be bullied and intimidated by her daughter, or for their lessons not to be disrupted, the rights of the teachers to a safe working environment. She wanted to send her children to a strict school, well the strictness applies to her too.

It is shocking to me that parents would agree to a particular school philosophy to get their child admitted, and then rescind that acceptance and try to bully the school into changing the policy

See the post at 20:00 @Emotionalsupportviper ... it's not entirely clear how much of the school philosophy the mum understood before sending her daughter there

There is no room for compromise in this situation.

Well there wasn't by the end point.

But at the start of the praying, of course there could have been. But the school isn't prepared to ever hear the student voice or preference.

Totally agree.

I think you are missing the point that this particular school' whole ethos, it's main philosophy is that it is a place where there is no religious or ideological practices because they believe them to be divisive. They have found that when there are no religious clubs, individual assemblies, LGBTQ+ groups etc that the school community works more cohesively and the pupils are more individually successful. They allowed some boundaries to be bent (allowing children to pray in the playground) and almost immediately there was conflict amongst pupils and racist incidents. Proving that identity politics has no place in schools.

All taxpayer funded organisations should be secular, whatever sky daddy people want to believe in is up to them but when unreasonable adjustments are being demanded it's just a recipe for disaster. Should I be able to take Friday afternoon and Monday morning off every week to worship The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Of course not as it would impact my job and my colleagues workloads. It's a good judgement and hopefully will allow more schools and workplaces to limit the toxic ramifications of religion.

That is not the fault of the school.

If the mother cares so little about what sort of education her daughter is going to receive, or how it is achieved, then the school can't make her take an interest.

She knows now what the school's policy is, and not only wants to keep her older daughter there, but send another there, too.

I don't think anyone being on the receiving end of litigation like this would be proud of the claimant.

I really like the headteacher, she runs a tight ship.

The only people who have access to justice now are the very rich (who can fund it themselves) and those with no savings/low/no income who get access to legal aid. Everyone in the middle (most of the country) doesn't have any access to justice because they are not entitled to legal aid but don't have enough money to fund it themselves, so most people can't make these kind of claims.

Well worth a read

That's her look out. She is also sending her other child to the school. She doesn't sound particularly interested in her child's education if she is happy to let her be rude in class, bullly other pupils, harrass and make racist remarks to teachers and couldn't even be bothered to read the school rules. To be honest, I'm surprised that intimidating children and teachers hasn't led to immediate expulsion for these children. If I had sent my child to a school like that, I would have at the very least expected a zero tolerance attitude to this sort of behaviour. I wouldn't want my child around that kid or her nasty racist little friends.If you look at situations like this and the Batley Grammar School situation where staff and pupils were intimidated by religious zealots, who suffers in the end? Muslim children in deprived areas who just want to get on with learning. Both these schools are majority Muslim schools. Other Muslim parents sent their children to the school, presumably happily. Their children were intimidated and their children's classes were disrupted. I'm not sure what happened to the teacher who was racially abused, or the one who had a brick thrown through their window, but if I was them, Id have left rather than teach a class with her in it. So other children have had their education disrupted. The Batley Grammar school is now having huge issues with teacher recruitment. No one wants to work there. A majority Muslim school which has one teacher in hiding and an entire school chronically short staffed because the actions of religious zealots, ruining the prospects of other children. Its all very well hand wringing about religious freedom but childrens school lives have been made a misery and their prospects damaged by this, for the sake of ideological intimidation by groups often with sinister agenda's.

Every school should aspire to work on the basis of compromise and mutual respect, notwithstanding the need for some non-negotiable rules

I agree completely, @EarringsandLipstick, and that's precisely why the school aim for everyone to value/respect each other as individuals regardless of which religion they happen to follow, celebrating unity and the common good rather than diversity

Compromise is a worthwhile aim too, and we see an example of this in the school's move to vegetarian-only food to avoid non meat eaters being marginalised at mealtimes so that unity can be maintained

Unfortunately they were faced with a group who demanded further compromise from others but reacted with violence when expected to demonstrate it themselves, and as the court have underlined that's not acceptable in this context

They don't need to be educated 'separately from therest of society'.

Lots of ordinary secondary schools choose to support multi-faith practices- so will have assemblies that are from the points of view of different faiths, an RE programme that explores different faiths, allow clothing from different faiths, provide foods at lunchtime to cater to different faiths. Other schools are single faith schools eg Roman Catholic, C of E, Jewish, Muslim. Some schools are secular and religion plays no part. People have a choice. You wouldn't choose a Jewish school if you were strict RC and expect them to provide daily Mass or ring an Angelus bell to remind you to go and pray. Similarly, if you sign up to a secular school why should the school change to suit your religious practices?

This school has been set up on a premise that religion has no part in the daily life of the school. It is unusual to find schools like this that are wholly secular. So why choose it and sign up to its very clear offer then take it to court to change it? Choose a school where practising your religion is acceptable at school. DH is a Head and if any child wanted to they could pray at lunchtime- no one does though.

What's Albania got to do with it?

It also caused threats to the school including a bomb threat and a brick through a teachers house

Unfortunately they were faced with a group who demanded further compromise from others but reacted with violence when expected to demonstrate it themselves, and as the court have underlined that's not acceptable in this context

Or in any context @Puzzledandpissedoff .

And you never compromise with aggressors - because no matter how much you concede, it will never be enough.

Unfortunately they were faced with a group who demanded further compromise from others but reacted with violence when expected to demonstrate it themselves, and as the court have underlined that's not acceptable in this context

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I do take this point & agree with you.

Yes it was noted one of the teachers was black and said it was important to note

I don't get the controversy.

The challenge was reasonable and the judgment was reasonable. There was a difference of opinion and the school's view prevailed.

Generally, freedom of religion is protected - see art 9 EHRC: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.

But obviously this right can be restricted in certain scenarios and the judge found that the school had the right to restrict it in the situation at issue.

Ultimately, I don't understand why the student should be vilified for daring to challenge the school. We should all be vigilant when we think there has been an illegitimate infringement of human rights - even if this is not found to be the case, being on the alert and protective of our rights is the best way to preserve them.

How do you get to that question from KtheGrey’s post?? She didn’t mention anything to do with being Muslim.

Totally agree - I only mentioned it because folk implied that the mum "must have known what the school was like"

It's also true, as another PP suggested, that initally allowing the pupils to pray outside was another attempt at compromise - and look where that got them

And you never compromise with aggressors - because no matter how much you concede, it will never be enough.

🙄

No. But you can compromise around matters of priority (Puzzled gave a fair example around vegetarian food).

The aggression which followed is unacceptable, absolutely. But that's not the starting point.

Good post.

It does seem a bit sledge hammer to crack a nut, to ban praying because it caused bullying

Have you seen the distress - in fact sheer misery - bullying can cause @Sandwichblock ?

There is thread after thread on MN about children being bullied at school, adults being bullied at work - and nothing is done.

Many schools seem to be ineffectual at implementing a bullying policy, many HR departments shrug complaints off, and children and adults alike have their lives made a misery, their confident destroyed and often their mental and physical health shattered by bullying.

Mrs Birbalsingh didn't tolerate it. She found the root cause and stopped it as soon as she could.

EVERY bullying situation should be taken just as seriously.

There are a lot of mosques which I know of, near to schools or certainly within a walk or public transport ride away. Muslims can also pray at home.

If e.g. I'm a Catholic and wish to pray after work/school, then I go to my nearest Catholic church or my local church or I pray at home.