For voting Tory

[Whatismypasswordthen]

I know what the Tories are and no, I don't like it. But I'm a woman, I have daughters and I come from generations of women who've been abused and dismissed because of their sex. I want better for my girls but I can't do it on my own. I need a government who will (at least give lip service to) supporting me. Am I a Tory? no. But the last thing women need is to be fighting their own government for basic recognition, so Tory it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/uk-culture-secretary-urges-ban-on-transgender-athletes-competing-in-female-only-events

I’ve not read all messages in this thread, there are many. This may have been said before, I think it was, ages (a few million posts) ago.

If we’re talking about

• bathrooms and changing rooms, pools etc - 3rd spaces. Or Female spaces and Open spaces if 3rd untenable.
• sports - female category and Open category.
• Women’s safe spaces like dv centres, rape crisis help - female spaces only. Open centres / sections / groups for everyone who is not female or doesn’t care if others are not.
• prisons - male and female
• health care - male and female

Top of my head suggestions.

"Watchful waiting" for children with appropriate psychiatric/psychological support - 85%+ of gender-confused young people will reconcile with their birth sex if allowed to experience puberty. For adults, applying similar techniques devised as best practice for those suffering from anorexia or BIID, as other psychological disorders which cause a disconnect between the person's body and their perception of self.

Of course that relies on significant investment in NHS MH services, and we won't get that under the Tories.

If you’re talking about how to deal with a person who feels like they are the opposite sex?

I’d advocate for a comprehensive psychological discussion / treatment / exploration care pathway. Taking into account any known MH conditions, age, lifestyle. No clinical treatment or medication until the person is 21yrs and over.

Bearing in mind our brains don’t fully develop until we are about 25yrs old. Even then it’s the pre frontal cortex that’s last to develop. Cognitive processes etc.

Do you think there is a " cure " for trans people?

For those old enough would you allow medical intervention?

And if so where would trans men and women who've had surgery be put in prison? Would that change where they should go?

For the record I agree with most of your points. I'm just curious if you believe no one should transition or if they do does that change where they should be allowed?

I don't think surgery should be the means to access opposite sex spaces, because it puts undue pressure on people who were considering social transition but didn't want medical intervention. It dangles a dangerous carrot in front of those people.

Pp have made good points below so I’ll not repeat but also I’m coming at it from a broad perspective

I think we’ve made a mistake with the GRA legislation and we should not re order society based on gender

I mentioned in pp that we should allow and encourage each sex class to encompass a full range of activities and presentation

Children especially should know it doesn’t matter if they like doing football or ballet, pink or blue, short or long hair - their sex cannot change but the full range is good

A progressive society to me would work on that basis and gender ideology would not play a part

No, but when that sort of thing happens in a toilet (in my case it's always been elsewhere) you are in a situation where both parties are already likely to be vulnerable and less at ease, and a challenge can easily turn aggressive. I have two DC who present in a ngc way and both have experienced verbal aggression when using their biologically assigned toilets. And unlik @EasternStandard I am not optimistic about that changing any time soon. The discourse is so polarised that there are too many very angry people on both sides.

Of course this is the obvious answer.

But it will upset the men who want to be in women's spaces. Especially the AGPs who use women as props for their fetishes.

What will they do in the future?

But what about trans folk who have already transitioned? So they still go to their respective prisons?

Where do you think they should go if they have medically transitioned?

I hear you.

But what about trans people here and now?

Is there a treatment you would suggest? How should they be integrated into society?

@Josette77 Yeah prisons should be sex based. As far as I am concerned there are no services or spaces that need to be based on gender identity. Either there is a good reason for male & female segregation, in which case they should be based on sex, or there isn't and a single space/service works for everyone.

*But what about trans folk who have already transitioned? So they still go to their respective prisons?

Where do you think they should go if they have medically transitioned?*

They still remain biologically a male or female, this can never be changed despite any surgical body modifications. The prison should align with their biological sex.

Like the lovely Sarah Jane Baker.

I think before anyone can answer that question, there has to be clarity as to whether we're on the same page when we use the term 'trans'. Are we talking about

1. adolescent girls reacting to the pressure of being female in a porn-soaked patriarchal society by trying to identify out of womanhood?
2. young boys encouraged to think of themselves as girls by homophobic parents who can't bear the thought of a gay son?
3. children with co-morbidities (autism, trauma, MH issues) for whom puberty feels like one challenge too far?
4. adult men with a paraphilia for cross-dressing?
5. repressed homosexual men who cannot accept themselves as gay men?
6. the tiny minority of people of either sex who are profoundly repulsed by their sexed body in a similar way to people with anorexia are repulsed by theirs?
7. people, especially men, claiming an opposite sex identity for their own purposes (see "prison-onset gender dysphoria")

All counted under the 'trans umbrella' (and there are probably other cohorts I've forgotten), mostly with very different reasons and impulses driving them. Is the answer to all of them cross-sex hormones and body modification surgery that will leave them lifelong medical patients and potentially increase any suicidal ideation? (If so, why don't we staple the stomachs of people with anorexia and amputate the healthy limbs of those with BBID?) Do you try to separate the fetishists and opportunists from those with psychological or psycho-social issues, and work with the latter to help them resolve those issues and become more comfortable living in the body they were born with? If not, why not?

(Of course, before you can talk about "cures" it would be useful to have some actual diagnostic criteria which can identify which young people will desist and which will persist in their gender confusion - I'm sure the ever-growing cohort of detransitioners would have been profoundly grateful if that had existed before they were added onto the pathway of medicalisation.)

No one should face harassment but it puzzles me that women who aren't transmen but who present in such a convincing masculine way that one genuinely can't tell that they're female, are surprised/angry when they are challenged in bathrooms for looking like a man.

Because it's's policing how a woman "should" look.

Because it's's policing how a woman "should" look.

No it isn't.

This is exactly how I feel (aside from not being in Scotland). I can't vote for any of them, for all the reasons stated. I never thought there would be an election in which I didn't exercise my democratic right to vote, but it seems like this will be the first one :(

Yes it is.

we could do this all day

What else is it then if it's not policing how a woman should look?
If a woman has been challenged/verbally abused as someone thought they were a man, what were they basing that on then if it wasn't due to how they looked?

Until the Labour Party unequivocally states that

Males should not be in female spaces

Males should not be in female sports

Males should not be counted as Females for crime reporting and equal pay laws

Children should not be experimented on

and finally the a woman is an adult human female - yes - fuck em - vote Tory, I sure as hell am

It absolutely is. A ngc presenting woman challenged in a female toilet is absolutely being challenged on appearance. It's beyond me how anyone can say otherwise.

Hopefully not on the calibre of your arguments.

It's about not wanting men in women's spaces. The women can look however they want. A quick chat with an 'oh you can't tell she's a female by looking at her' would put that to rest.

Felicity Hoffman played a very convincing Transwoman.

People mock Jennifer Aniston by calling her Maniston.

Hailey Bieber also gets bullied for apparently
" looking trans ".

Winona Ryder used to get beat up at school for looking like a boy.

I'm not saying the above look masculine in my opinion, but I'm saying lots of people see things differently. Lots of people look androgynous.

I think anyone being bullied and harassed should be surprised and upset.

Exactly! As I said, if it wasn't about looks, what was it then?