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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For voting Tory

1000 replies

Whatismypasswordthen · 16/04/2024 12:23

I know what the Tories are and no, I don't like it. But I'm a woman, I have daughters and I come from generations of women who've been abused and dismissed because of their sex. I want better for my girls but I can't do it on my own. I need a government who will (at least give lip service to) supporting me. Am I a Tory? no. But the last thing women need is to be fighting their own government for basic recognition, so Tory it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/uk-culture-secretary-urges-ban-on-transgender-athletes-competing-in-female-only-events

UK culture secretary urges ban on transgender athletes competing in female-only events

Lucy Frazer calls on sporting officials to draw up ‘unambiguous’ guidelines on gender identity

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/uk-culture-secretary-urges-ban-on-transgender-athletes-competing-in-female-only-events

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/04/2024 12:13

This thread’s jumped the shark now. Really, truly gone even more bonkers than they usually do.

A typical but unsurprising response.

SerendipityJane · 18/04/2024 12:13

BIossomtoes · 18/04/2024 12:11

This thread’s jumped the shark now. Really, truly gone even more bonkers than they usually do.

A thread plugging the Tories descending into chaos ?

The irony.

Underthinker · 18/04/2024 12:13

I think it gets into such dangerous territory for women attacking women.

I think the 2 options are...

  1. Sometimes people who appear to be entering the wrong space for their sex get challenged.
  2. Absolutely anyone is allowed into any single sex space no questions asked.

I don't think most people who argue against 1 truly want 2, but I could be wrong.
Is there a third option?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/04/2024 12:14

Yes. Most GC posters don't though. They obsess about penises in a very pro-Patriarchy way. It's been a big change.

Not from the responses on this thread that you, Blossom and the other one just gloss over.

BIossomtoes · 18/04/2024 12:15

SerendipityJane · 18/04/2024 12:13

A thread plugging the Tories descending into chaos ?

The irony.

😂

EasternStandard · 18/04/2024 12:16

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/04/2024 12:08

Of course it does. They wouldn't have to challenge anything if a) men weren't such a problematic sex class #notallmen 🙄 and b) people weren't seeking to dismantle the social contract that currently exists, like I said, of not allowing men into women's spaces, just because of an internal belief that no one has to buy into.

Men.

You’re making sense don’t worry about accusations

People will hold onto gender ideology even though there is a better way for society to deal with gender dysphoria which ensures dignity, safety and privacy to women. I’m not sure why

It’s interesting that male violence has come up a couple of times as a reason to protect others in their sex class but the pp can’t join the dots to seeing why single sex is important due to that violence

EasternStandard · 18/04/2024 12:17

AdamRyan · 18/04/2024 12:12

Yes. Most GC posters don't though. They obsess about penises in a very pro-Patriarchy way. Its been a big change.

Blimey. Chaos indeed

ToWhitToWhoo · 18/04/2024 12:26

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/04/2024 12:11

I'd prefer to focus on the right for women to get justice if they are raped, not to be forced to bring up their children in poverty, to have employment protections at work even if they are doing part time or zero hours contracts, to be able to be treated for health conditions, not to die unnecessarily in childbirth and to get support for birth injuries and trauma.

Women can care about and want those things, and the right to keep sex segregated spaces AND highlight the potential harm gender ideology brings to women, all at the same time. Crazy I know.

Yes, they can be concerned with both. But they can't be concerned with the first set AND vote Tory.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/04/2024 12:33

Yes, they can be concerned with both. But they can't be concerned with the first set AND vote Tory.

Agree with you there.

ilovesooty · 18/04/2024 12:35

lifeturnsonadime · 18/04/2024 11:04

Don't you like my tone Blossom?

Am I not womaning kindly enough for you?

These are important questions, they may be inconvenient but if someone is seeking to show that they are not an activist for the removal of women's rights then they should be easy enough to answer.

Edited

I'm not seeking to show I'm not an activist. I don't have to justify my stance to prove to you that I'm not one to prevent being personally attacked because of your definition of what a TRA is.

Livelovebehappy · 18/04/2024 12:36

Not sure where my vote is going yet. Waiting to see what Labour are promising and how they're going to cost it. That's the thing with Labour, they over promise and are wishy washy with how they're going to pay for it. Would also feel happier if Rayner wasn't the deputy. She's too much to the left, and her not being as vocal this last year with her leftist rantings makes me suspicious that she's playing the game until Labour get in.

Livelovebehappy · 18/04/2024 12:37

AstralSpace · 16/04/2024 15:39

Vote for who you want.
I don't understand why people get so hostile. Most people are fairly central in their views and veer right and left on a few issues.
Not many people love either party and are just voting for the lesser of the two evils.
Both are pretty shit and neither are going to make the country any better.
They're pretty much all career politicians these days, their priority is to make as much money as possible while they can and have no consideration for the country.
Once we stop fighting each other and blaming the voting decisions of each other for the mess, maybe we can come together and take action ourselves (open to ideas)

100% agree.

ilovesooty · 18/04/2024 12:38

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 18/04/2024 11:12

Am I not womaning kindly enough for you?

😂
This is just laughable when people get called a man or a TRA if they don't toe the line when it comes to agreeing wholeheartedly on this issue

And calling people that breaches the Talk Guidelines in my opinion.

Livelovebehappy · 18/04/2024 12:39

Whatismypasswordthen · 16/04/2024 16:05

Calling someone an idiot is always offensive as you well know. I suggest you edit your post.

Don't you know this is what the lefties do? Resort to name calling because they can't debate rationally or intelligently. Just go straight to 'you are an idiot' if you dont agree with them.

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 18/04/2024 12:41

"lefties" 🙄😂

SoundTheSirens · 18/04/2024 12:41

ToWhitToWhoo · 18/04/2024 12:26

Yes, they can be concerned with both. But they can't be concerned with the first set AND vote Tory.

Absolutely, which is why I’ve already said twice on this thread that I won’t be.

ilovesooty · 18/04/2024 12:42

EasternStandard · 18/04/2024 11:30

@lifeturnsonadime your tone is fine don’t worry about it

I don't think it is. Obviously opinions vary.

BIossomtoes · 18/04/2024 12:42

Livelovebehappy · 18/04/2024 12:39

Don't you know this is what the lefties do? Resort to name calling because they can't debate rationally or intelligently. Just go straight to 'you are an idiot' if you dont agree with them.

I think you’ll find it’s the “lefties” requesting courtesy on this thread.

EasternStandard · 18/04/2024 12:54

I think we could address some issues if we dropped stereotype, which gender ideology reinforces

eg if a young child expresses an interest in gnc activity or presentation we embrace it and normalise

This is far more preferable to me than any idea gender ideology is relevant

pointythings · 18/04/2024 12:56

Livelovebehappy · 18/04/2024 12:39

Don't you know this is what the lefties do? Resort to name calling because they can't debate rationally or intelligently. Just go straight to 'you are an idiot' if you dont agree with them.

The irony in this post is just astounding. A poster who accuses those of us who are on the political left of name-calling by... name-calling us. You honestly couldn't make it up.

ToWhitToWhoo · 18/04/2024 12:58

I do honestly think that there is some confusion here between women's rights and women's safeguarding. Both are important, but they're not the same thing; and exclusive concern with women's safeguarding can be inimical to women's rights.

Sageguarding = giving some special protections to women and preserving and ensuring single-sex spaces for women.

Rights = avoiding direct and indirect discrimination against women and ensuring that most spaces are not segregated, and that both sexes can access them on an equal basis.

Of course, one can and should be concerned with both. But equating the two or considering only safeguarding runs the risk of supporting the sort of old-fashioned sexism which argues that the 'fair sex' are far too fragile and angelic to be exposed to the nasty, rough world of work, politics and study; that it's their natural vocation to care for family members, so they don't need financial or practical support; that they should dress 'modestly' to avoid tempting those nasty men who can't control their impulses; etc.

There is rather too much preoccupation, on both sides of the issue, with so-called 'TERF's. There simply aren't that many radical feminists, 'trans-exclusionary' or otherwise- and certainly not on the political Right. There are lots of anti-feminists (some of them even female), who oppose anyone who doesn't conform to strict gender roles. A few of these support the concept of transgender individuals, basically on the grounds that 'if you like football you must really be male and if you like cooking you must really be female'. But far more of them oppose trans people because they're not conforming to conventional gender roles and are blurring gender distinctions. And anti-feminists tend to congregate in right-wing political parties. Our Toriesa are actually better from this point of view than those in many countries (the top British political bigotry is xenophobia, not misogyny); but voting Tory does risk encouraging the socially conservative NatCon types and Trump supporters.

Josette77 · 18/04/2024 12:58

Livelovebehappy · 18/04/2024 12:39

Don't you know this is what the lefties do? Resort to name calling because they can't debate rationally or intelligently. Just go straight to 'you are an idiot' if you dont agree with them.

The irony of your name ...

Can you point to where the so called " lefties" called someone an idiot?

You just said lefties can't debate rationally and intelligently. How is that part of a mature conversation?

pointythings · 18/04/2024 12:59

EasternStandard · 18/04/2024 12:54

I think we could address some issues if we dropped stereotype, which gender ideology reinforces

eg if a young child expresses an interest in gnc activity or presentation we embrace it and normalise

This is far more preferable to me than any idea gender ideology is relevant

I do actually 100% agree with this. No more girls this and boys that. More autism awareness for everyone so that children can be who they are without stereotyping. Yes to helping boys be better men.

ToWhitToWhoo · 18/04/2024 13:00

SoundTheSirens · 18/04/2024 12:41

Absolutely, which is why I’ve already said twice on this thread that I won’t be.

Great!

However, the OP was recommending that we vote Tory,

Josette77 · 18/04/2024 13:05

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/04/2024 11:59

I'd actually probably think 'good on you for having the courage to stick up for sex based rights' if anyone challenged me for looking 'masculine' in a toilet.

Really? A woman harasses you in the bathroom and forces you to leave and you congratulate her?

So in order to make sure Transwomen don't use women's bathrooms, women are allowed to harass other women in the name of feminism?

Hardly seems pro woman.

I can't imagine ever being ok with a woman kicking me out of the bathroom because I don't look the part. I also can't imagine doing that to another person either though.

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