For voting Tory

[Whatismypasswordthen]

I know what the Tories are and no, I don't like it. But I'm a woman, I have daughters and I come from generations of women who've been abused and dismissed because of their sex. I want better for my girls but I can't do it on my own. I need a government who will (at least give lip service to) supporting me. Am I a Tory? no. But the last thing women need is to be fighting their own government for basic recognition, so Tory it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/uk-culture-secretary-urges-ban-on-transgender-athletes-competing-in-female-only-events

It seems we agree for some spaces but not all so not entirely the same.

I take it the pp is ok with mixed sex in other spaces eg changing rooms / toilets

Apparently it does now. 🤷‍♀️

I haven't called you anything Sooty.

I have made points throughout the thread about the reasons I disagree.

Apart from the obvious that some women have been harmed and excluded from parts of society as a result of this and that children have been harmed,
the most notable being that if we can't define the class of humans that used to be known as women how can we tell which humans need rights?

In a world where women's rights have historically played second fiddle to men's rights this is a valid concern.

You haven't responded to those points, you don't have to of course but I'm just pointing that out.

So @lifeturnsonadime says. And I will report it as a personal attack if she calls me one, as she has others on the thread.

All of those things have a disproportionate impact on the class of humans formerly known as women.

I wonder how one will assess the impact on that class of humans now that the word woman has been co opted to include any human who says they are one?

I don't agree with you on all those points but they are very different from calling people TRAs under the definition you gave.

Perhaps others haven't reported you for "you are an activist - own it". That's up to them. However if you say that to me I will certainly report it.

So for all of those who don't give too much of a toss about the women who are excluded by the inclusion of males in women's single sex spaces such as public toilets what do we do about the women who need single sex public toilets? Ones who have experienced trauma/ religious minorities?

Why are their needs less important than the wishes of the trans identified men who want to use them?

Why do women ALWAYS come last in peoples considerations. Be kind, but only to the males, huh?

Really interested in what part of the evidence of harms to women and the problems with identifying sex based issues in society when we define people based on their self declaration you disagree with?

Those issues have a disproportionate effect on all vulnerable people. I'm more concerned about that than how those vulnerable people are defined.

So to give the example of health care which you quoted. I'm very interested in this and why you think the specific needs based on sex are irrelevant.

Most medicines have historically been trialled on men. Treatments of men's diseases has taken priority over that of women.

Not being able to assess healthcare shortages based on sex alarms me. Treatments are based on sexed bodies not feelings in a persons head. So called inclusive language in healthcare excludes some women. If women are told they need a smear test they know, even with limited language skills, who women are. If people with a cervix are invited in public campaigns a lot of women with poor language skills through lack of education or through being immigrants with a poor grasp of English are going to miss vital health check. Same for men.

So going back to this.

You don't think that humans need to be defined by sex? or you don't think this is important?

This means that you actively support the removal of accurate reporting of harms to vulnerable people based upon their sex?

Is that right?

I didn't say they were irrelevant. I said definitions were less important than the overall issues.

Now I'm afraid I have to go to work.

I mean that's just not true. We don't have self ID in this country, all the politicians can see it would be electoral suicide to move to self ID so it's not going to happen. That horse has bolted, thanks to the patience and rational debate of many women over the last decade.

For the first time I feel political homeless, none of them seem to value anything worth voting for.
I definitely will not be voting Tory, but I don't feel I can vote Labour which I normally do.
I guess at the end of the day I will have to vote for the lesser of the two evils which will be Labour.
Just feel very strongly (mostly against Kier) that he and some of that party does not no or care what a woman is.

You might get a little further if you were less aggressive. And stopped putting words in other people’s mouths.

Christ, that is ironic.

Is there a middle ground? Is the answer for you simply trans people don't exist?

Can someone's preferred pronouns matter? If someone clearly identifies as the opposite sex would you ignore that just to make a point?

If they pass and you find out they are trans, do you switch their pronouns?

And if so do you think this will bring people closer to a resolution?

But people self declare gender on most forms these days Adam.

No one asks to see a GRC before a man can tick woman on a box.

Even official documents such as passports don't require a GRC https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a75b9dfe5274a43682997fe/Applying_for_a_passport_additional_information.PDF.

Service providers can't ask for one.

So whilst it's not official policy we have de facto Self ID.

You are being dishonest if you claim not to be aware of the impact of these issues on women's rights.

Happy for transwomen to live their day to day lives as they wish. I can see sex based segregation is required in some areas such as sport, prisons, health care but in most areas of life men and women mix together freely and I certainly don't have an issue with transwomen sharing with women in most aspects of life.

Why is this narrative being spun? I haven't met one GC person (like myself) who doesn't wish for transwomen and transmen to live their day to day lives as they wish. That however doesn't extend to entering spaces, which are sex segregated for a reason, just because of a belief system.

These are but not limited to communal toilets, changing rooms, sports (because of the physiological advantages possessed by biological males), prisons, rape crisis centres, intimate care etc etc etc. for all the reasons given but the various 'liberal feminists' on here don't seem to be able to justify why trans women should be able to be in those spaces. Just that they should.

Stop making out people are calling for trans people not to exist just because it suits your lazy narrative.

Don't you like my tone Blossom?

Am I not womaning kindly enough for you?

These are important questions, they may be inconvenient but if someone is seeking to show that they are not an activist for the removal of women's rights then they should be easy enough to answer.

I think some posters on this thread are zealots who will never accept the existence of transwomen

I’ve never met such a person.

I’ve met people (many people) who don’t think males should be in female spaces.

I’ve met people who think the term ‘trans women’ to describe males who identify as females, misleading and inaccurate. As linguistically speaking a trans woman is a transitioning woman, one can see why an sig proportion of people are confused and think trans women are females. Again it’s the misuse / manipulation of language.

I have never met, irl or online any ‘zealots who will never accept the existence of trans women’. Have you?

@Josette77 Is there a middle ground? Is the answer for you simply trans people don't exist?
Pretty sure they exist or this debate that's been raging for decades would be pretty pointless.
But existing* and needing to be in opposite sex spaces are different things. *

I mean from that Passport form -

Applying for your passport You can apply for a passport in an acquired gender. This option is available to those who do not hold a Gender Recognition Certificate or have not had gender reassignment surgery, as well as those who have.

Flipping ridiculous.

How can you tell a man he can get a UK passport with the sex of Female then tell him he can't use single sex spaces reserved for the class of humans formerly known as women?

A review of how this was allowed to happen needs to be held along with commitment from all political parties to draw back and start protecting women and children's sex based rights.

What do you think trans people existing looks like?

If we treat Transwomen exactly like men, and Transmen exactly like women... How is that any different from saying they don't exist?

Exactly the question I always ask too.

That's my "own it" moment, because the implications of what is being said are clear.