For voting Tory

[Whatismypasswordthen]

I know what the Tories are and no, I don't like it. But I'm a woman, I have daughters and I come from generations of women who've been abused and dismissed because of their sex. I want better for my girls but I can't do it on my own. I need a government who will (at least give lip service to) supporting me. Am I a Tory? no. But the last thing women need is to be fighting their own government for basic recognition, so Tory it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/uk-culture-secretary-urges-ban-on-transgender-athletes-competing-in-female-only-events

Exactly, it's so fucking stupid.
Then you'll get posters saying "wah, don't say the c word!"
🙄
It's just ridiculous, they know fine well who you are referring to as your posts couldn't be clearer but prefer to play obtuse instead.

But you are asking me to vote for a party that defines women and girls in a different way?

You and I agree on most things.

What we disagree on is accepting the altered definition as collateral damage.

Oh for the love of god. If you want women to vote Labour you have to understand that Labour defines women as including some men.

That's on them not on me.

No I'm not. I'm not asking you to vote for any party. Read the actual posts instead of making shit up and believing that I said it.

As for collateral damage, are you happy for women and children to be collateral damage because you refuse to vote for Reform UK?

This is just such a ridiculous argument.

Even were I to vote Reform on a point of principle on this issue they wouldn't stand a chance of forming a government.

Whereas women who sacrifice their beliefs to vote Labour run the risk of Labour's views being those of the government.

You are not making honest arguments.

I am as concerned about Women's issues as you are. I'm firmly behind Sharron Davies and others, in that biological men have zero place in women's sports.

And there is undoubtedly a case for being concerned about some alleged trans-women being a threat in prisons and so on.

I will say this though, I personally know a couple of trans women (married to each other). They present as very female, and the idea of them having no option but to use a mens loo - I dread to think.

So, I'm very concerned about this, but I also recognise that some trans-folks who present as very female, and are no threat to anyone, are at risk.

It's not black and white. Yes of course there are threats to women and women's spaces, undoubtedly, but then would you tell your very-effeminate trans child that they need to run the gauntlet of a men's toilet.

As I said it's tough.

Not all trans are the same. Dare I say the genuine and the not so genuine.

And we can all get het up about the trans-folk that make the headlines, but that's not reality.

What about the ones who present (very convincingly) as female, are zero threat to anyone, and just want to live their lives.

Noone has any answer for this.

Again, as I said it's tough.

Feminists fight governments for women's rights. Whoever that government is. It's easier to do this with a full belly, in decent health, and a roof over over your head.

And you've a cheek to accuse me of not making honest arguments when you are making up stuff that I haven't said.

So you think that because you have some trans friends women should wave goodbye to single sex spaces?

Basically women should be kind and be 'human shield's' to some males?

I have a short disabled brother he's at risk in the men's loos physically , I have a gay nephew, they are all men, are you saying that women's single sex spaces should be open to all vulnerable males or just the ones who claim to be women?

Or how about the men step up and stop being violent to each other and stop expecting women to protect some males from male on male violence?

It is black and white.

We have single sex spaces for a reason. Women shouldn't have to be the protectors of non conforming males, no matter how convincing their act is.

By definition you can't fight for women's rights with a prospective government that won't define women.

Trans rights are the privileged beliefs.

Which women are more likely to be harmed by the inclusion of males in single sex spaces, the ones in refuges, prisons, rape crisis? Clue not the privileged ones.

Trans activism is the privileged belief system.

You said you want people to vote labour because you want the Tories out.

I'm not making shit up. it's all there for everyone to read.

We've done it with the Tories. We'll do it with whoever comes next.

You may have the luxury of waiting for a government that uses the language you want them to in order for you to be able to fight them. I don't have that luxury, nor do I need it.

Can you quote the post where I said that?

I wonder how old you are. I was around the last time we went from a Conservative to Labour government with all of the promises made under New Labour.

It's a merry go round.

Historically women get a bad time from it. Now is worse than ever.

Especially when we have women saying we can't point out the ills of redfining the word woman to 'include men' because of their party political allegience .

I feel like the Tories are kind of brilliant in all of this.

I agree with all of your points, and have a tansmasc partner.

It's amazing to me though that anyone could look at the state of the NHS and single moms living in poverty or any other multitude of issues and think Transwomen are the issue.

I mean... Do people honestly think that if Transwomen were no longer an " issue" everything for women would be fine? They are .1% of the population and of that population most are not trying to take away women's rights.

As long as some women are determined to fight this one and only issue politicians will continue to get away with destroying the country.

I'm all for tackling the above issues with sports and crisis centers etc. but also it's a privilege if these are the biggest issues for you in the election.

And deciding who is a TRA and who is an ally is just creating more divides. It's not condusive to any sort of resolution.

I will admit to paraphrasing but that was the sentiment.

It is better to vote for Labour than the Tories is your point isn't it?

I don't think that trans women are the issue.

I think redefining women to include males that is the issue. it isn't personal .

How can women state their needs if men are included in the definition?

I didn't post it. And I never asked you to vote Labour. You're making up shit and believing I said it. That's crazy.

BTW I'm in my 50s.

You are now gaslighting so I'm done with you.

You have literally been all over this thread trying to tell women not to vote Tory because Tory bad and you have been arguing with me over this for hours.

Good luck to you.

I'm not making shit up. it's all there for everyone to read

I will admit to paraphrasing but that was the sentiment

🙄
Also known as "making shit up "
Yes, you're right there at least, in that all rhe words are there for everyone to read.

I'm not done with you.

You have nothing substantive to say on these threads other than to come on to castigate women who stand up for women's rights.

What is shit is women, or those who claim to be, actively standing against women's rights.

You believe men are women when they say so, I know from other threads. Own it.

You have no interest in women's rights. own it.

"So you think that because you have some trans friends women should wave goodbye to single sex spaces?"

I never said that, and I don't believe that. Please don't put words in my mouth.

And if you'd read my post you would have seen that I asserted that women's spaces need to be protected absolutely, but I also recognise that trans that present as very female need also some place to go.

Not necessarily women's spaces, but something.

Again, let's not demonise all trans as preditory men in a dress. Some are for sure, but that's not reality for most. And they need to go to the loo.

I also recognise that we are talking about tiny numbers, so the idea that businesses would make some concession for trans-women's toilet facilities is for the birds.

Again, it's difficult.

Put yourself in a feminine trans person's shoes, where you wouldn't have a clue they were actually male. That could be your son or mine. Where do they go?

That is a good point as well.

If my partner walked into a women's bathroom people would not be happy even though it is his biological sex.

I do wonder how often I've been around a trans woman and not known it. I wouldn't want to send someone vulnerable into a mans washroom or change room. I think unisex should be an option.

I'm not done with you

Sheesh that's me told 🙄

You have no interest in women's rights. own it

Not true at all, I care very much for women's rights, I care if we get proper healthcare with the NHS, I care that we have adequate help with childcare, in the workplace, bodily rights such as autonomy, rights to abortion etc.
Just because I'm not a doggedly obsessed one track minded single issue voter when it comes to women's rights doesn't mean I don't care about women's rights.
I do.

I'm not trying to demonise all trans people.

What I am trying to say, perhaps clumsily, is that women exist as a sex class and that if trans women have issues in spaces for their sex that's not really an issue for women to address, unless you think the job of women is to support vulnerable males.

Put simply why should male discomfort be considered more significant than female discomfort in this context. I know there are women who will self exclude from spaces where trans women are present?

It's not difficult if you actually consider humans as sexually dimorphic beings , which we are. Gender is a social construct. So it comes down to which is more important to protect the most. I would say we have historically had single sex spaces for a reason and whilst I can empathise with individual trans women (males) on a personal level their desires to present as the sex they are not should not override the lived reality of the women who will self exclude as a result of males being present.

The trans women I know get that. They see sex and gender as being distinct and respect women's wishes.

The pushes of the activists haven't helped young trans people. I hope that this will change going forward.