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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For voting Tory

1000 replies

Whatismypasswordthen · 16/04/2024 12:23

I know what the Tories are and no, I don't like it. But I'm a woman, I have daughters and I come from generations of women who've been abused and dismissed because of their sex. I want better for my girls but I can't do it on my own. I need a government who will (at least give lip service to) supporting me. Am I a Tory? no. But the last thing women need is to be fighting their own government for basic recognition, so Tory it is.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/uk-culture-secretary-urges-ban-on-transgender-athletes-competing-in-female-only-events

UK culture secretary urges ban on transgender athletes competing in female-only events

Lucy Frazer calls on sporting officials to draw up ‘unambiguous’ guidelines on gender identity

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/uk-culture-secretary-urges-ban-on-transgender-athletes-competing-in-female-only-events

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
MrsMurphyIWish · 17/04/2024 06:05

SoreAndTired1 · 17/04/2024 04:53

@MrsMurphyIWish Why do you think it would make a different how many trans people we know? I am baffled by people posing this question, as if it means anything. We all know men. And it doesn't change our minds that men don't have any place in womens single sex spaces.

Do we need to personally know a child abuser/rapist/paedophile/burglar/financial scam artist/environmental scientist/engineer/teacher etc before we have an opinion on them, too?

@SoreAndTired1 My point was that it seems to me the OP is only concerned about this point now with an election looming. For 3 years I’ve been raising my concerns about my school helping in the transition process without informing parents. I’m in the thick of it so I see these issue first hand. I am a GC feminist but at this point in time I’m more bloody concerned about my classroom ceiling falling down than anything else!

EasternStandard · 17/04/2024 06:13

Crikeyalmighty · 17/04/2024 00:07

@Whenwillitgetwarm and strangely the usual Tory apologists seem to have gone AWOL but lots of new names suddenly posting 'an awful lot' -strange eh

What they don't seem to get is that many of us have concerns about 'many' issues - this is but one. However I think they think it's the one that will get that female vote- despite having done sod all about it for 14 years.

I’m not sure what you mean here

Are you suggesting the op is a specific poster who has gone ‘awol’, which one?

Josette77 · 17/04/2024 06:20

Underthinker · 16/04/2024 21:03

Or transmen requesting transfer to men's prison.

Transmen automatically go to men's prison if they have changed their government ID. My trans partner is aware of this.

OoooohBobMonkhouse · 17/04/2024 06:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

valensiwalensi · 17/04/2024 07:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What Government is this situation happening under?

and you don’t call people “It”.

Eyerollingagain · 17/04/2024 07:25

Wait until we have all the men in dinghies claiming they are women and have faced prejudice in other countries.

That will be the new route in if you start accepting “women with penises”.

valensiwalensi · 17/04/2024 07:27

Eyerollingagain · 17/04/2024 07:25

Wait until we have all the men in dinghies claiming they are women and have faced prejudice in other countries.

That will be the new route in if you start accepting “women with penises”.

Where are they not accepted under this current government?

Eyerollingagain · 17/04/2024 07:32

It isn’t a question of acceptance. It will become a formal reason to claim asylum.

The army used to kick people out if they were gay (I don’t agree with it before you bounce) and many used it as a reason to get out of the army before things changed.

People will utilise a system created for them.

Grow and nurture this gender ideology and it will have bigger consequences.

Fr7fr6 · 17/04/2024 07:38

YABVU! I'm somewhat gender critical, although I don't support transphobia, and I wouldn't vote Tory if you paid me. They don't give a shit about women, or children for that matter, for reasons laid out perfectly in the first reply. Horrendous maternity services; poor quality and expensive childcare provision; violence against women and children; the lack of acknowledgement of the true value of care whether it be for children or the elderly, paid or unpaid; a welfare system which pushes families into poverty etc.

If they actually did anything meaningful to address these issues, which require money, thought and compassion, then they would deserve your vote. However, they pick the low hanging fruit and decide to stir up a culture war. I agree that biological males should not be allowed to compete in women's sports nor should they be allowed in women's safe spaces, but if the Tories actually cared about women they'd deal with the real grinding problems which affect women and day in day out. You can vote Tory and see transwomen banned from women's sport or you could vote for another party and perhaps see a party try and tackle the real issues facing women. Think about which will actually benefit you and the women in your life in the long run?

Additionally, they've been in power for fourteen years and done fuck all about the erosion of women's rights with regard to the trans issue. They only care now because they're losing support and can whip up a frenzy.

Eyerollingagain · 17/04/2024 07:39

Strangely if I want to identify as a pensioner and request my pension early I would be laughed at.

I can pretend and live my life as a pensioner to a point. What I cannot do is make people join my delusion and bend society’s structure to accommodate it.

Some people feel they are meant to identify as disabled. Do we change it all for them too?

Yet here we are debating an issue that we have political parties that do or do not believe women can have penises.

OoooohBobMonkhouse · 17/04/2024 07:40

valensiwalensi · 17/04/2024 07:06

What Government is this situation happening under?

and you don’t call people “It”.

Sorry I should have said he/she...he/she gets to voice his/her views and we have to listen.

I work in HE, very left wing. Full of progressives types who paint rainbow crossings on their land and hold regular sessions telling you how you should think. If we get a left government, I fear it will get worse.

My rights as a woman are being overlooked while they look after the 1%.

peacocksuite · 17/04/2024 08:06

GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight · 16/04/2024 23:40

@peacocksuite
I get that this has been a shit show but labour will be worse
but sadly it could abd probably will slide a lot further

In what way? I can't imagine they'll be worse than the shit we've had to put up with for the past few years

@GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight

Well here are the things that will definitely be worse under labour -

  • immigration (legal and illegal) will not fall and will probably get higher (you moght not care but about 70%) of the population do. This will put more strain on resources, NHS, schools, housing, roads etc.
  • woke politics will get worse, eg self ID for transwomen meaning they can be in women's spaces, police pursuing so called hate crimes (thought crimes) online instead of policing burglaries rapes etc.
  • the economy will not improve with businesses as they are stifled by more red tape on workers rights.
  • most rich non doms will leave, meaning we won't have their tax income
  • labour will definitely not tackle the huge numbers of unemployed and people on sickness benefits
  • the VAT on school fees will barely raise anything taxwise but hugely increase pressure on places for the best state and grammar schools (ex private school kids don't go to the local sink hole comp, their parents will ensure they go to the outstanding ones). If you live just only just in the catchment of an outstanding school I'd be worried, as your kid probably won't get in once Labour are in power.

The NHS might get more funding but without reform (which they won't do) it us just pouring water into a leaking bucket. The funding is unlikely to result in more beds, nurses, doctors but layers of quangos (which is already in their manifesto).

Sooooo... I think things could get quite a bit worse. The Tories have been dreadful, admittedly. But I look at Keir Starmer and see a rabbit in the headlights, and he's the best of them.

Piggywaspushed · 17/04/2024 08:15

No , you also should not have said he/she.

Your prejudice is showing so that makes sense.

Eyerollingagain · 17/04/2024 08:35

It is not prejudice to not want to bend facts or distort science.

It is very irritating to be labelled bigot, racist, phobic etc as soon as you disagree with something.

I do not accept there are women with penises.
The sentence itself is ridiculous and I choose not to join in with such a damaging narrative.

Men have the right to wear dresses, make-up and women have the right not to.
Nobody has the right to order people into their way of thinking or make them conform to something that is not truth. They only have the right to not be abused for their choices.
Abuse is not defined by disagreeing but there are many in the left that will quickly label you for doing so. Isn’t that strange.

The minute a political party actually entertains this way of thinking, we start to move into the realm of ridiculous.

You cannot insist that people accept the nonsense that women can have penises. If you do, you need to be prepared to accept everything an individual chooses to be fact such as identifying as what age you choose etc.

Allowing a political party to enter us into this nonsense is absolutely a hill to die on.

Eyerollingagain · 17/04/2024 08:52

Yes it does affect everything.

If you have a society that accepts women with penises, you have opened yourself to accepting migrants that are women with penises and are fleeing from prejudice and harm.

You open the door to men being in women’s safe spaces.

You open the door to women with penises wanting their maternity leave and benefits. Wanting their acceptance of menopause recognition of how difficult it is for them.
When they start claiming they have period pains and need time off work etc

I can assure you that if you think there isn’t enough done now for women and children (I personally agree) we will sink lower on the list of priorities because our country will need to bow to their needs first to avoid offending them or being branded as bigoted.

Their needs are trumping ours now so imagine what’s in store if we have a government that is prepared to enter into delusion in some misguided quest to not appear prejudiced.

Saying no to allowing this is not prejudice. It is standing firm on facts and not allowing yourself to be bullied into conforming to a delusion.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 17/04/2024 08:57

strangely the usual Tory apologists seem to have gone AWOL but lots of new names suddenly posting 'an awful lot' -strange eh

i seem to recognise the names of most of the, what you term as tory apologists, and i don’t think name changing on a site that allows it is particularly suspicious

pointythings · 17/04/2024 08:58

peacocksuite · 17/04/2024 08:06

@GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight

Well here are the things that will definitely be worse under labour -

  • immigration (legal and illegal) will not fall and will probably get higher (you moght not care but about 70%) of the population do. This will put more strain on resources, NHS, schools, housing, roads etc.
  • woke politics will get worse, eg self ID for transwomen meaning they can be in women's spaces, police pursuing so called hate crimes (thought crimes) online instead of policing burglaries rapes etc.
  • the economy will not improve with businesses as they are stifled by more red tape on workers rights.
  • most rich non doms will leave, meaning we won't have their tax income
  • labour will definitely not tackle the huge numbers of unemployed and people on sickness benefits
  • the VAT on school fees will barely raise anything taxwise but hugely increase pressure on places for the best state and grammar schools (ex private school kids don't go to the local sink hole comp, their parents will ensure they go to the outstanding ones). If you live just only just in the catchment of an outstanding school I'd be worried, as your kid probably won't get in once Labour are in power.

The NHS might get more funding but without reform (which they won't do) it us just pouring water into a leaking bucket. The funding is unlikely to result in more beds, nurses, doctors but layers of quangos (which is already in their manifesto).

Sooooo... I think things could get quite a bit worse. The Tories have been dreadful, admittedly. But I look at Keir Starmer and see a rabbit in the headlights, and he's the best of them.

Oh, you've seen the actual manifesto? Please do share it with us.

If you haven't seen it (and you haven't) you're scaremongering. The fact that you are opposed to improving workers' rights speaks volumes. Thanks to the Tories, temp workers have lost the right to paid leave from day 1, which EU law had given them. Guess who's disproportionately affected by this change? Women.

Zyq · 17/04/2024 09:08

I wonder if OP has clocked today's news that it is Labour who have done something to protect the children of paedophiles? But no doubt the trans issue is way more important than a few abused children.

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/04/2024 09:30

Blimey, the Tories are tetchy this morning.🙈

EasternStandard · 17/04/2024 09:32

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/04/2024 09:30

Blimey, the Tories are tetchy this morning.🙈

Which post is ‘tetchy’?

ineedtostopbeingdramaticfirst · 17/04/2024 09:32

What's the saying

"The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result "

Crikeyalmighty · 17/04/2024 09:40

@Fr7fr6 totally my views too

TooBigForMyBoots · 17/04/2024 09:41

Crikeyalmighty · 16/04/2024 23:30

And the reasons they have been useless are in full flow today- talk about tinkering at the edges. Vast amounts of time on this Rwanda thing but makes no financial sense at all but they think appeals to the hard right voters- who ironically most of whom are daft enough to be voting Reform if X is anything to go by and fanning around with a smoking bill which was never going to pass muster with the libertarians in the party who don't want to stop smoking but are quite happy to leave the ECHR ( and I say this as someone who smokes)

Rwanda is a useless, very expensive vanity project. £100s of millions that could have been spent making British women's lives better spunked on building houses in Rwanda and enriching the government in Kigali.Angry

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 09:57

ineedtostopbeingdramaticfirst · 17/04/2024 09:32

What's the saying

"The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result "

😂 That’s deep.

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 09:58

Drawn from: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Values-Voice-Virtue-British-Politics/dp/0141999098?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Britain is in the grip of a new elite, which has been rapidly losing touch with the rest of the country, setting the stage for a looming backlash among the masses.
If you want to understand why, over the last decade, Britain was radically reshaped by the rise of Nigel Farage’s national populism, Brexit and the post-Brexit realignment, symbolised by Boris Johnson, then you need to make sense of this elite.
Britain has always had an out-of-touch elite, of course. Henry Fairlie first talked about “the Establishment” in the 1950s, an Old Boys network of wealthy, right-leaning elites in the City who fill the Tory donor class and private members’ clubs on Pall Mall.
The old elite -clearly- still exist. It continues to wield enormous power over politics and the economy. But today, in Britain, as in many other Western democracies, the axis of power is now rapidly tilting toward a new ruling class —one that overlaps with the old elite but is distinct from it in important, under-appreciated ways.
Whereas the old elite was mainly defined by its wealth, inherited titles, estates, “small C” cultural values and, often, though not always, its lack of university education, the members of the new middle-class professional elite are defined by different things.
They were swept forward, mainly, by the rapid expansion of the universities, by their elite education at one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or Russell Group universities which, like them, have swung sharply leftwards over the past half century.
Whereas back in the 1960s left-wing academics outnumbered right-wing academics by a ratio of three to one, today it’s closer to eight to one, a symbol of how both the universities and the graduates they produce have increasingly swung left.
Unlike the right-leaning old middle-class and the Tory elite, over the last ten years the new middle-class graduate elite has shifted behind the Labour Party and other liberal left parties, such as the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish National Party, or the Greens.
In fact, had only Britain’s graduate class been eligible to vote at the last election, in 2019, then Jeremy Corbyn would currently be prime minister. And this shift is now being compounded by generational change; ask Millennial graduates how they voted at the last election and only one in five will say the Tories.
The rise of the new elite, then, reflects the rise of a powerful new ‘education divide’ in Britain and other Western democracies, a deep-rooted rift which is now pushing the elite graduate minority and the non-graduate majority firmly apart —economically, politically, culturally, and geographically.
Economically, the new elite are fond of portraying themselves as the oppressed and disadvantaged, the underdogs who are railing against the ‘real’ elite. But the reality is quite different. More often than not, they have been the real winners of globalisation and the transition toward a post-industrial knowledge-based economy.
For much of the last half century, the new elite, whose families often descend from the professional and managerial classes, benefitted far more than others from the shift toward a university-based meritocracy —a system which has increasingly whittled down the definition of ‘success’ to mean having a degree from the right university.
Shaped by their privileged family backgrounds, their educational qualifications, and their much greater ‘cultural capital’ —gained from their more immersive experiences in the Oxbridge and Russell Group college system— the new elite hoovered up most of the gains from Britain’s embrace of hyper-globalisation and a political economy which was rebuilt around them, which both demanded and rewarded their skills.
They’ve benefitted culturally, too. After flooding into the creative, cultural, knowledge and public sector institutions, becoming a new “epistemic class” which creates, filters and determines what is or what is not acceptable or desirable within the national conversation, the new elite watched the prevailing culture be completely reshaped around their far more socially liberal values, tastes, political priorities, and interests.
Increasingly, when they’ve looked out at the institutions and what they create -the television programmes, films, adverts, books, museums, galleries, columns, and the national conversation more broadly- they’ve seen their worldview staring back at them while millions of others struggle to recognise their worldview at all.
This is why the rise of Nigel Farage, Brexit, Trump, and Boris were so visibly traumatic and bewildering for the new elite. Until then, this culturally isolated and politically insulated group had largely had everything their own way.
At the same time, as academics have shown, their very status as highly educated, high-flying, liberal graduates has become central to their collective identity, giving them a powerful new sense of “class consciousness”, encouraging them to look down on the less well educated or the rising number of graduates from less prestigious institutions.
Increasingly, over the last decade, this has been driving what Michael Sandel calls the ‘politics of humiliation’, a palpable sense among millions of ordinary voters that they are now being cut adrift by a highly educated elite which not only hoovered up the economic gains but often rigged the system to favour their own group over others.
Whether reflected in the new elite bribing their way into America’s prestigious Ivy League colleges, the finding in Britain that it was mainly the children of the new elite who benefitted from the expansion of universities, or the repeated failure of the elite universities to devote anywhere near as much effort to helping children from the white working-class as they devote to those from minority backgrounds (as recently symbolised by Cambridge ignoring left behind white kids altogether), this sense that the deck has been rigged for the new elite has pushed many into populism.
And geographically, too, the new elite has been drifting away from much of the rest of the country, hunkering down in elite enclaves which is compounding these divides. Aside from their degrees, members of the new elite are also defined by their postcodes in the most affluent or trendy districts in London, the big cities and university towns.
They’ve consolidated their power not only by living in the most dynamic and prosperous epicentres of the economy, benefitting from buoyant housing markets and higher rates of growth, but are also more likely to marry other members of the elite graduate class while unfriending, blocking, and distancing themselves from people who do not belong to this class or who hold different political beliefs and values.
Almost half of all university students who graduate with a first-class or 2:1 degree from one of the most prestigious Oxbridge or the Russell Group are living in London within six months of graduating, while many others flock into the same parts of south Manchester, Bristol, Brighton, Sheffield. Increasingly, as much research shows, this is pushing apart the thriving, metropolitan and diverse centres from what geographer Christophe Guilluy, who forecast the rise of the Yellow Vests, calls “the periphery”.
It’s in Britain’s declining towns, rural areas and coastal communities, the areas filled with workers, non-graduates and pensioners which the new elite deride as “Little England” or “going nowhere” — where the backlash against them is strongest.
One reason why Labour lost the last election so heavily is precisely because the party, dominated by the new elite, had spent much of the preceding twenty years doubling down on the values and the voice of the new elite while ignoring the periphery.
This is underlined by the fact that, even today, the party has still not won the popular vote across non-London England since 2001, or that Labour strategists now openly confess they did not even bother to hold focus groups and speak to voters in many of these areas for close to twenty years. They just weren’t considered important.
This is not just about Labour, however. In recent years, the growing power and reach of the new elite has been just as visible on the right of politics, reflected in the likes of of Anna Soubry, Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, and many other culturally left conservatives who either opposed Brexit or now feel completely at ease with very high immigration, hyper-globalisation, and key aspects of radical progressivism.
Consistently, as surveys show, many of Britain’s MPs on both the right and left lean much further to the cultural left than millions of voters in the country, refusing to represent, recognise and sometimes even respect people who hold different values to the socially and economically liberal consensus which tends to dominate Westminster.
And now, today, it’s this deep and growing rift between the elite graduate class and everybody else which is giving rise to three new fault lines which have been reshaping our politics and country over the past decade and will almost certainly drive more unrest in the years ahead unless we can find a way of closing them.

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Rise of the New Elite
How Britain's new ruling class lost touch with the country
https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

Rise of the New Elite

How Britain's new ruling class lost touch with the country

https://www.mattgoodwin.org/p/rise-of-the-new-elite

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