Page 22 | Would you make a complaint about these paramedics?

WatermelonWaveclub · 2024-04-16T09:30:52+00:00

I went to my GP the other day as I kept fainting when coughing. The GP said my HR was sky high. Then I coughed and fainted in front of the GP. Afterwards I couldn't move my legs properly. She phoned the hospital who said I need an ambulance. The GP got someone to get me in a wheelchair and take me to the nurse's room where I was put on a bed in a cubicle. Anyway a few minutes later the ambulance crew turn up (3 of them). They did an ECG - ok but tachycardic. I said my legs were feeling ok by then. They did a lying and standing BP and checked I could feel both sides of my face, could hold both arms up, checked pupils etc. So they say they need to take me to hospital. They start heading off and so I follow them on foot. They're all walking ahead of me, chatting away, not one seeing if I'm ok. So consequently we get into the car park - I have a coughing fit and next thing I know I'm waking up on the car park floor. I can't stop thinking about it. Were they at fault? Should they have used a wheelchair or at least someone walked with me? At the hospital they wouldn't even let me go to my scans etc in a wheelchair, I had to be taken in my bed. So if GP and nurse wouldn't let me walk was it right that the paramedics did?

ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 18/04/2024 18:29

This is fascinating from "high up" personnel.

Don't complain because good staff will change (on what exactly do you base this?) and bad staff won't care.

It's your bloody staff to make them care. Jesus.

ashitghost · 18/04/2024 18:47

YANBU I completely agree with you. They could have a least walked you out supporting you. But I think given what you were going through they should have taken you in a wheelchair. I hope you get well soon.

AnotherVice · 18/04/2024 19:57

Out of interest OP, after how long/after what treatment, did hospital staff allow you to walk again?

Name6 · 18/04/2024 21:25

Have you sent a complaint? When I had to complain about paramedics PALS didn’t deal with it, I had to go to through the ambulance service, but it may be different in different trusts.

My DH had a stroke in our upstairs bedroom. When the ambulance arrived he was displaying obvious FAST symptoms and talking rubbish but they still let him walk downstairs and to the ambulance unaided. By the time he got to the hospital he had complete one sided paralysis and was very seriously unwell. It was only later looking back I realised how dangerous that was, so I didn’t complain but would have raised a concern at the time if his illness hadn’t taken over all our thoughts.

Please ignore all the victim blaming, it was in no way your responsibility.

pikkumyy77 · 18/04/2024 21:31

AnotherVice · 18/04/2024 19:57

Out of interest OP, after how long/after what treatment, did hospital staff allow you to walk again?

What an irrelevant question. Why would medical decisions post treatment be anything like medical decisions pre treatment during the acute phase of the illness?

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 21:33

The responses clearly highlight why we there was typically little benefit in crews engaging in the back and forth, deliberate misreading and representation for the drama of it all.

Whilst I did try to elucidate to how mistakes like this can happen I've clearly stated that this was an incident that shouldn't have occurred and will have already been documented by the crew in the datix and prf as is standard practice, yet posters are still misrepresenting what I've said into me endorsing the behaviour, not caring and a sign of rot!!! It's not difficult to comprehend, the crew are already aware the patient fell, there is no reason to suspect they think that was great or that the patient thought it was fine, it will have been documented by them already. How does making them write a response to the complaint change anything? It doesn't, it just takes them off the road meaning reducing service when today we have been running already at a 2hr response for cat2 (which would include people having strokes), to tell them something they already have knowledge of. How on Earth could this be justified when there are people in the office who can do this far more efficiently.

What we do use the information for as I explained is to identify trends and training needs and implement this in the training days that all staff undertake. This has been shown to be a tactic that changes practice for the better, where as passing on complaints like this one to individual staff members just had negatives.

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 22:04

Name6 · 18/04/2024 21:25

Have you sent a complaint? When I had to complain about paramedics PALS didn’t deal with it, I had to go to through the ambulance service, but it may be different in different trusts.

My DH had a stroke in our upstairs bedroom. When the ambulance arrived he was displaying obvious FAST symptoms and talking rubbish but they still let him walk downstairs and to the ambulance unaided. By the time he got to the hospital he had complete one sided paralysis and was very seriously unwell. It was only later looking back I realised how dangerous that was, so I didn’t complain but would have raised a concern at the time if his illness hadn’t taken over all our thoughts.

Please ignore all the victim blaming, it was in no way your responsibility.

If it helps to give any insight into this risk benefit situation this is my thinking on the situation: If someone has had a stroke and is FAST+VE in window (you need to really start treatment within 4.5 hours of symptom onset, after this it can be too late to treat) - every minute counts. If treatment is started within 1 hour of symptom onset; around 75% will make a very good recovery from the stroke, if it's 4hours that drops to around 10%. Using a chair, especially downstairs can be very time consuming, it is also not always 'safe'. For example a disorientated patient/or just any scared patient can lean and grab out destabilising the chair and result in a fall (strapped to a chair down going downstairs) - the chairs are small without side rails, can you imagine being sat on a chair like that with 2 people carrying you down the stairs?! Not something for the faint hearted.

Also some patients are too heavy or really unsteady and just not safe to carry on a chair - so the next step is either to use a scoop stretcher (like a board) instead but this needs another crew, and ability to use depends on the shape of the staircase, you can easily add 1-2 hours to the time onscene which can result in disability that could have been reversed now being permanent.

Walking out is always a consideration if the patient can stand, if they can't support their weight then you're just stuck and the delay is unfortunately the delay and you just get them out as quickly as you are able to. But if they can walk/take steps then on stairs we would normally have someone supporting behind the patient in a manner which if the patient looses balance you can pull them back to seated so they sit on the steps. It can also just be possible to 'bottom shuffle' down steps. Not very dignified, but getting to hospital minutes/an hour earlier can be all the difference in enabling the stroke team to be able to effectively treat the patient.

As I said there will be times that you just have to use the chair on stairs, and I've certainly done this myself on many occasion, but it's certainly not black and white the safest way to get down stairs, and if it was me or my loved one I'd want them to arrive at hospital as soon as possible. With this in mind I've driven two patients to hospital direct to scan in my car because there just wasn't an ambulance available to assist in a reasonable time frame - so essentially FAST+VE having a stroke but driven direct to the stroke unit unmonitored/they had to walk to and sit in the back of the car, but all in their best interests since the alternative was to sit and wait and now instead of going for meaningful treatment essentially just going to hospital to document the extend of the damage which now cannot be reversed because that section of the brain has died.

My point that in any instant there is often not a singular 'correct' plan or answer in medicine. In the stroke patients I took in the car fortunately both went very well and they were in CT/starting treatment when otherwise we'd have just been sat waiting for the ambulance, it gave them a chance to be treated. However sure if the patient had a seizure in the back of my car, bit their tongue/aspirated, or I crashed whilst driving on blue lights and keeping one eye on the patient in the rear view then it would be a different story.

PampasGrass · 18/04/2024 22:05

How do you know they filled in a datix themselves? Maybe they didn’t and that’s the issue.

Name6 · 18/04/2024 22:10

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 22:04

If it helps to give any insight into this risk benefit situation this is my thinking on the situation: If someone has had a stroke and is FAST+VE in window (you need to really start treatment within 4.5 hours of symptom onset, after this it can be too late to treat) - every minute counts. If treatment is started within 1 hour of symptom onset; around 75% will make a very good recovery from the stroke, if it's 4hours that drops to around 10%. Using a chair, especially downstairs can be very time consuming, it is also not always 'safe'. For example a disorientated patient/or just any scared patient can lean and grab out destabilising the chair and result in a fall (strapped to a chair down going downstairs) - the chairs are small without side rails, can you imagine being sat on a chair like that with 2 people carrying you down the stairs?! Not something for the faint hearted.

Also some patients are too heavy or really unsteady and just not safe to carry on a chair - so the next step is either to use a scoop stretcher (like a board) instead but this needs another crew, and ability to use depends on the shape of the staircase, you can easily add 1-2 hours to the time onscene which can result in disability that could have been reversed now being permanent.

Walking out is always a consideration if the patient can stand, if they can't support their weight then you're just stuck and the delay is unfortunately the delay and you just get them out as quickly as you are able to. But if they can walk/take steps then on stairs we would normally have someone supporting behind the patient in a manner which if the patient looses balance you can pull them back to seated so they sit on the steps. It can also just be possible to 'bottom shuffle' down steps. Not very dignified, but getting to hospital minutes/an hour earlier can be all the difference in enabling the stroke team to be able to effectively treat the patient.

As I said there will be times that you just have to use the chair on stairs, and I've certainly done this myself on many occasion, but it's certainly not black and white the safest way to get down stairs, and if it was me or my loved one I'd want them to arrive at hospital as soon as possible. With this in mind I've driven two patients to hospital direct to scan in my car because there just wasn't an ambulance available to assist in a reasonable time frame - so essentially FAST+VE having a stroke but driven direct to the stroke unit unmonitored/they had to walk to and sit in the back of the car, but all in their best interests since the alternative was to sit and wait and now instead of going for meaningful treatment essentially just going to hospital to document the extend of the damage which now cannot be reversed because that section of the brain has died.

My point that in any instant there is often not a singular 'correct' plan or answer in medicine. In the stroke patients I took in the car fortunately both went very well and they were in CT/starting treatment when otherwise we'd have just been sat waiting for the ambulance, it gave them a chance to be treated. However sure if the patient had a seizure in the back of my car, bit their tongue/aspirated, or I crashed whilst driving on blue lights and keeping one eye on the patient in the rear view then it would be a different story.

Show quote history

I’m well aware of all that, but in this instance it was not safely done. The complaint I did make was about a paramedics disgusting attitude towards me on another occasion, but I’m not going into that as it’s not relevant to the OP situation

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 22:12

PampasGrass · 18/04/2024 22:05

How do you know they filled in a datix themselves? Maybe they didn’t and that’s the issue.

Because that is absolutely what they would have done, but as I said when reviewing this complaint the documentation around the incident would obviously be reviewed, if the crew had omitted any mention that would certainly be an issue that would be raised with them and could cost them their jobs - lying or deliberately with holding such information would be a serious matter.

People are 'allowed' to make mistakes in judgement, lying/omission on documentation would absolutely lead to question of fitness to practice.

Akamai · 18/04/2024 22:18

I can’t believe the woman blaming on this thread.

I’ve seen better care from members of the public than these paramedics gave to OP!

Who the fuck leaves a woman who has just fainted alone to walk to an ambulance?!

OP, you should definitely complain. You could have hit your head so badly on the concrete and got concussion or worse.

They were absolute cunts to leave you, please complain.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 18/04/2024 23:01

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 22:04

If it helps to give any insight into this risk benefit situation this is my thinking on the situation: If someone has had a stroke and is FAST+VE in window (you need to really start treatment within 4.5 hours of symptom onset, after this it can be too late to treat) - every minute counts. If treatment is started within 1 hour of symptom onset; around 75% will make a very good recovery from the stroke, if it's 4hours that drops to around 10%. Using a chair, especially downstairs can be very time consuming, it is also not always 'safe'. For example a disorientated patient/or just any scared patient can lean and grab out destabilising the chair and result in a fall (strapped to a chair down going downstairs) - the chairs are small without side rails, can you imagine being sat on a chair like that with 2 people carrying you down the stairs?! Not something for the faint hearted.

Also some patients are too heavy or really unsteady and just not safe to carry on a chair - so the next step is either to use a scoop stretcher (like a board) instead but this needs another crew, and ability to use depends on the shape of the staircase, you can easily add 1-2 hours to the time onscene which can result in disability that could have been reversed now being permanent.

Walking out is always a consideration if the patient can stand, if they can't support their weight then you're just stuck and the delay is unfortunately the delay and you just get them out as quickly as you are able to. But if they can walk/take steps then on stairs we would normally have someone supporting behind the patient in a manner which if the patient looses balance you can pull them back to seated so they sit on the steps. It can also just be possible to 'bottom shuffle' down steps. Not very dignified, but getting to hospital minutes/an hour earlier can be all the difference in enabling the stroke team to be able to effectively treat the patient.

As I said there will be times that you just have to use the chair on stairs, and I've certainly done this myself on many occasion, but it's certainly not black and white the safest way to get down stairs, and if it was me or my loved one I'd want them to arrive at hospital as soon as possible. With this in mind I've driven two patients to hospital direct to scan in my car because there just wasn't an ambulance available to assist in a reasonable time frame - so essentially FAST+VE having a stroke but driven direct to the stroke unit unmonitored/they had to walk to and sit in the back of the car, but all in their best interests since the alternative was to sit and wait and now instead of going for meaningful treatment essentially just going to hospital to document the extend of the damage which now cannot be reversed because that section of the brain has died.

My point that in any instant there is often not a singular 'correct' plan or answer in medicine. In the stroke patients I took in the car fortunately both went very well and they were in CT/starting treatment when otherwise we'd have just been sat waiting for the ambulance, it gave them a chance to be treated. However sure if the patient had a seizure in the back of my car, bit their tongue/aspirated, or I crashed whilst driving on blue lights and keeping one eye on the patient in the rear view then it would be a different story.

Show quote history

My understanding is that @WatermelonWaveclub had already been moved to a downstairs room before the paramedics arrived - she doesn’t mention walking downstairs behind the paramedics.

But even if she was upstairs, and the paramedics decided the safest thing was to walk her downstairs and out to the ambulance, as you said, the patient would ‘normally’ be supported - so surely it was negligent of the paramedics to walk ahead of her, leaving her unsupported and unobserved, allowing her to fall. In fact, if she did have to walk downstairs, that makes it worse, not better, because she could have fainted on the stairs and been seriously injured or killed.

Original poster

WatermelonWaveclub · 18/04/2024 23:02

AnotherVice · 18/04/2024 19:57

Out of interest OP, after how long/after what treatment, did hospital staff allow you to walk again?

Um, probably about a day. I had CT scan, chest x-ray, ECG, MRA, bloods. Obviously care plans and risk assessments were done. When I walked I had someone with me due to the coughing triggering me to faint.

OP posts:

Original poster

WatermelonWaveclub · 18/04/2024 23:05

Name6 · 18/04/2024 21:25

Have you sent a complaint? When I had to complain about paramedics PALS didn’t deal with it, I had to go to through the ambulance service, but it may be different in different trusts.

My DH had a stroke in our upstairs bedroom. When the ambulance arrived he was displaying obvious FAST symptoms and talking rubbish but they still let him walk downstairs and to the ambulance unaided. By the time he got to the hospital he had complete one sided paralysis and was very seriously unwell. It was only later looking back I realised how dangerous that was, so I didn’t complain but would have raised a concern at the time if his illness hadn’t taken over all our thoughts.

Please ignore all the victim blaming, it was in no way your responsibility.

I'm sorry to hear about your husband and I hope he has recovered? I've done nothing as yet, but will when I feel better.

OP posts:

Original poster

WatermelonWaveclub · 18/04/2024 23:10

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 21:33

The responses clearly highlight why we there was typically little benefit in crews engaging in the back and forth, deliberate misreading and representation for the drama of it all.

Whilst I did try to elucidate to how mistakes like this can happen I've clearly stated that this was an incident that shouldn't have occurred and will have already been documented by the crew in the datix and prf as is standard practice, yet posters are still misrepresenting what I've said into me endorsing the behaviour, not caring and a sign of rot!!! It's not difficult to comprehend, the crew are already aware the patient fell, there is no reason to suspect they think that was great or that the patient thought it was fine, it will have been documented by them already. How does making them write a response to the complaint change anything? It doesn't, it just takes them off the road meaning reducing service when today we have been running already at a 2hr response for cat2 (which would include people having strokes), to tell them something they already have knowledge of. How on Earth could this be justified when there are people in the office who can do this far more efficiently.

What we do use the information for as I explained is to identify trends and training needs and implement this in the training days that all staff undertake. This has been shown to be a tactic that changes practice for the better, where as passing on complaints like this one to individual staff members just had negatives.

Noone has suggested they write a response. I don't know how I can put this more simply. Just as one point - this crew knew nothing about whooping cough and did not understand the risk of fainting to someone with this disease. Do you not think in the middle of an outbreak it may be a good idea to educate your staff on this disease? This does not involve them writing responses. It just involves senior leadership supporting their staff.

OP posts:

Original poster

WatermelonWaveclub · 18/04/2024 23:17

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 18/04/2024 23:01

My understanding is that @WatermelonWaveclub had already been moved to a downstairs room before the paramedics arrived - she doesn’t mention walking downstairs behind the paramedics.

But even if she was upstairs, and the paramedics decided the safest thing was to walk her downstairs and out to the ambulance, as you said, the patient would ‘normally’ be supported - so surely it was negligent of the paramedics to walk ahead of her, leaving her unsupported and unobserved, allowing her to fall. In fact, if she did have to walk downstairs, that makes it worse, not better, because she could have fainted on the stairs and been seriously injured or killed.

Show quote history

Yes, I was already downstairs. And not sure how leaving me to fall helped with getting me to hospital as quickly as possible.

OP posts:

JuvenileBigfoot · 19/04/2024 02:17

WatermelonWaveclub · 17/04/2024 16:29

Yes, this is where I can piece things together. If they wanted me to stay in the cubicle they wouldn't have left me alone. If they had wanted a wheelchair there was one right there. If they were going for a stretcher as soon as they realised I was walking behind they would have taken me back to the cubicle.

Show quote history

Yeah, to confirm, it's usually a person crew and usually 1 person (the attendant who is doing the paperwork and will get travelling in the back with the patient) stays with the patient and the driver gets the chair. It's harder to get a trolley on your own but it is doable. But they had a student or another 3rd person on board- 2 people is plenty to get a chair or trolley.

They didn't even need to get their own though, as we know the GP practice has a wheelchair. I would have used that as its safer.

pikkumyy77 · 19/04/2024 12:14

OP you have been wonderfully kind and brave to keep posting so cogently in the face of all this criticism. Please do complain!

Tahinii · 19/04/2024 20:51

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 21:33

The responses clearly highlight why we there was typically little benefit in crews engaging in the back and forth, deliberate misreading and representation for the drama of it all.

Whilst I did try to elucidate to how mistakes like this can happen I've clearly stated that this was an incident that shouldn't have occurred and will have already been documented by the crew in the datix and prf as is standard practice, yet posters are still misrepresenting what I've said into me endorsing the behaviour, not caring and a sign of rot!!! It's not difficult to comprehend, the crew are already aware the patient fell, there is no reason to suspect they think that was great or that the patient thought it was fine, it will have been documented by them already. How does making them write a response to the complaint change anything? It doesn't, it just takes them off the road meaning reducing service when today we have been running already at a 2hr response for cat2 (which would include people having strokes), to tell them something they already have knowledge of. How on Earth could this be justified when there are people in the office who can do this far more efficiently.

What we do use the information for as I explained is to identify trends and training needs and implement this in the training days that all staff undertake. This has been shown to be a tactic that changes practice for the better, where as passing on complaints like this one to individual staff members just had negatives.

”How does making them write a response to the complaint change anything?”

I am surprised you need to ask this. @WatermelonWaveclub is not asking the front line staff to sit down and hand write her a heartfelt apology note.
If you don’t collect feedback, complaints and data, how do you improve professional practice? How do you learn from mistakes? If I was receiving a number of complaints about people waiting too long for an initial social care assessment or a number of complaints about staff not answering emails, I could see there is an overall concern and I can take action.
The management hold the responsibility.

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 20/04/2024 09:20

pikkumyy77 · 17/04/2024 22:08

There is a really strong cultural bias against complaining (on mumsnet). It is seen as weak, as evading personal accountability, and as unhealthy and liable to harm the OP as it will prevent her from having the energy to heal. That would be my analysis of the cultural beliefs that underpin the “Don’t complain” posts. Within the context of the NHS complaints are seen as useless, or captious, or ungrateful. Many posters asserted that OP received more attention than she should have, received fast ambulance attendance when others didn’t, overegged her symptoms, did not listen to the paramedics, did not give the paramedics enough information, etc… in this version OP didn’t deserve as much attention as she got and should repay this favoritism by not criticizing the service.

Complaining is also seen as unnecessary (almost nagging or moaning) and hurtful to the EMTs who are understood to be hapless, charitable, everymen who aren’t paid to do a professional job.

Needless to say these are fairly weird biases.

Well put!

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 20/04/2024 09:28

SleepyRich · 17/04/2024 22:54

If it makes you feel any better and helps you move on you should write the complaint, but if you're doing it because you think it's going to have some profound change in practice then I wouldn't be too bothered over the matter. As someone who works in the ambulance service at a senior level and has a hand in managing these types of complaints all that happens is you'll get a generic apology from the service. It's unlikely the crew involved would even be notified (we shield them from hearing about complaints like this since around covid time, this is because they only serve to cause stress/harm to the crew and there's no benefit or upside). Whilst it's certainly not ideal you fell, and I'm sure the crew felt badly about the incident, essentially you walked yourself into the GP surgery with the same symptoms, it was reasonable to assume that you could walk to the ambulance.

When the post started out I thought you were going to say that the paramedic discharged you/didn't take you to hospital as the GP had requested and there'd been a negative outcome. That's the kind of complaint the service would seek a response from the crew for.

God. Help . Us. All

Nanaof1 · 20/04/2024 14:34

SleepyRich · 18/04/2024 22:04

If it helps to give any insight into this risk benefit situation this is my thinking on the situation: If someone has had a stroke and is FAST+VE in window (you need to really start treatment within 4.5 hours of symptom onset, after this it can be too late to treat) - every minute counts. If treatment is started within 1 hour of symptom onset; around 75% will make a very good recovery from the stroke, if it's 4hours that drops to around 10%. Using a chair, especially downstairs can be very time consuming, it is also not always 'safe'. For example a disorientated patient/or just any scared patient can lean and grab out destabilising the chair and result in a fall (strapped to a chair down going downstairs) - the chairs are small without side rails, can you imagine being sat on a chair like that with 2 people carrying you down the stairs?! Not something for the faint hearted.

Also some patients are too heavy or really unsteady and just not safe to carry on a chair - so the next step is either to use a scoop stretcher (like a board) instead but this needs another crew, and ability to use depends on the shape of the staircase, you can easily add 1-2 hours to the time onscene which can result in disability that could have been reversed now being permanent.

Walking out is always a consideration if the patient can stand, if they can't support their weight then you're just stuck and the delay is unfortunately the delay and you just get them out as quickly as you are able to. But if they can walk/take steps then on stairs we would normally have someone supporting behind the patient in a manner which if the patient looses balance you can pull them back to seated so they sit on the steps. It can also just be possible to 'bottom shuffle' down steps. Not very dignified, but getting to hospital minutes/an hour earlier can be all the difference in enabling the stroke team to be able to effectively treat the patient.

As I said there will be times that you just have to use the chair on stairs, and I've certainly done this myself on many occasion, but it's certainly not black and white the safest way to get down stairs, and if it was me or my loved one I'd want them to arrive at hospital as soon as possible. With this in mind I've driven two patients to hospital direct to scan in my car because there just wasn't an ambulance available to assist in a reasonable time frame - so essentially FAST+VE having a stroke but driven direct to the stroke unit unmonitored/they had to walk to and sit in the back of the car, but all in their best interests since the alternative was to sit and wait and now instead of going for meaningful treatment essentially just going to hospital to document the extend of the damage which now cannot be reversed because that section of the brain has died.

My point that in any instant there is often not a singular 'correct' plan or answer in medicine. In the stroke patients I took in the car fortunately both went very well and they were in CT/starting treatment when otherwise we'd have just been sat waiting for the ambulance, it gave them a chance to be treated. However sure if the patient had a seizure in the back of my car, bit their tongue/aspirated, or I crashed whilst driving on blue lights and keeping one eye on the patient in the rear view then it would be a different story.

Show quote history

Another long, excuse-laden trope.

They screwed up. There. In one sentence.

Mistakes are made....this wasn't a mistake or an oversight. It was blatant disregard for an at-risk patient.

Just STOP trying to excuse it and "explain it away". Few here are so dumb that we will swallow what you are trying to shove down our throats.