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Original poster

Honour-based crime up 62%

187 replies

Papyrophile · 10/04/2024 21:02

According to the Family Law Centre, honour-based crime in the UK went up 62% from 2020-2022. For explanation, honour-based crime and abuse mostly affects women from SE Asian or Middle Eastern backgrounds where the cultural traditions are very strongly patriarchal, arranged marriages are routine and women are regarded as less important/valuable than men.

As a feminist, this is extraordinarily distasteful to me but I am not affected at all by it. How do other people see the situation?

OP posts:
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5
EasternStandard · 12/04/2024 21:18

Words · 12/04/2024 15:56

I don't think the term should be sanitised. Usually honour is in inverted commas, or prefaced by 'so-called'. I think that makes its meaning pretty clear.

It's a very culturally specific crime, and I think amalgamation into other forms of violence against women elides the point and does a disservice to victims.

I agree I don’t want it just part of other stats

This is linked to culture

DramaLlamaBangBang · 12/04/2024 21:20

MagentaRocks · 12/04/2024 20:34

There’s a lot of comments about it just being male violence but it isn’t. It is called honour crime is for a reason. Most male offenders who commit violence against females do so under the radar as best they can and, especially with domestic abuse, they present a different side of them to others. Very few would openly say to their family they are violent to their wives/children. Honour based crime is different, there are often multiple offenders from the same family committing the crime and they do it to save face with their community for the perceived dishonour that the family member has brought on their family. This is so very different to the typical VAWG crimes and with the perpetrator being praised for it they feel they have done the right thing.

We absolutely need to talk about this and not lump it in with similar crimes. It doesn’t mean one type is more or less that the other, just different.

Wasn't there some kind of coomunity fundraising appeal to pay for the funeral of the acid attacker? I know they lied about who it was for to get more money, but who would even think to set up a fundraiser for him? And yes, the women- mother's, mother in laws especially are often active or complicit in the abuse.

Original poster
Papyrophile · 12/04/2024 21:27

The more I consider it, the more I start to think it should have its own category.

I shudder to think that anyone would give money to pay for a funeral for the acid attacker. Cremation without name or remembrance, akin to the old school fate of suicides being buried in unsanctified ground.

OP posts:
PizzaPastaWine · 12/04/2024 22:11

Honour based violence needs to be categorised separately from domestic violence and to remain as HBV. That's not to take anything away from any form of domestic abuse. We all know there is no 'honour' in killing anyone in a domestic setting; the term refers to cultural expectations in multiple religions.

My understanding of HBV is that the victim often has more than one perpetrator within the family environment. This, combined with more often than not the person being vulnerable due to not having the support of the family or community networks, unable to speak the language, lack of access to funds and a distrust of police (usually originating from a their home country) makes the reporting if this type of crime a massive deal. Once reported their lives will flip on their axis and they will be reliant on a support network that involves other agencies but probably not their family.

karmanirvana.org.uk/ are consistently providing support for victims of HBV and also education for other agencies such as the police. They provided support Fawziyah Javed's family in The Push. They use the term honour.

HRTQueen · 12/04/2024 22:45

Honour violence is a very particular type of violence against woman and girls that is more prevalent in some cultures than other (it’s South Asian cultures and ME rather than SE Asian cultures)

you are not going to shift attitudes by challenging and arguing about the term as honour isn’t intrenched in British culture. We all know it’s about control and using violence to keep control what is needed is more support for these women and girls to not also get away from violent families but also to bring up their children safe environments

I think more woman and girls who are in this situation are possibly reaching out for help, reporting the violence, and trying to get away are reporting their families and often this will mean breaking away from all their family

RaininSummer · 12/04/2024 22:50

Not a surprise when you consider how the ethnic make up of the uk has changed. However lets call it violence against women as there is no honour in it.

OnHerSolidFoundations · 12/04/2024 22:57

Candleabra · 10/04/2024 22:28

I wish they’d stop calling it honour crime.
It’s disgraceful how violence towards and murder of women is minimised. Even the language implies it’s deserved and not the fault of the men who (almost always) do it.

This!

itsmylife7 · 13/04/2024 08:07

AmaryllisChorus · 10/04/2024 22:16

No such thing as 'honour based' crime. Violence against women is violence against women. Murder is murder. No honour in either of those. These are not honourable men, They are scum.

Exactly.....let's call it what it is...Murder.
because women won't follow the pathetic rules.

Nantescalling · 21/01/2025 07:59

jannier · 10/04/2024 22:56

The term is a classification the perpetrators believe something has happened that dishonours the family and the only way that it can be reinstated is by killing the person...normally the female...who brought shame to the family.
The purpose of classification is to help identify individuals who may become at risk and to help them.
Similar to faith based abuse, forced marrage and fgm by understanding the reasons and cultures that are more a risk you can become alert to the indicators and step in.
Can anybody suggest an alternative name that separates this type of abuse to aid identification of risk?

Thank you so much for clarifying this. The idea that killing the person who has sinned and caused the loss of the family honour thus cleansing the family and restoring that honour is pretty rife in Muslim communities. It applies to girls who have sex before marriage, unfaithful wives, any LGBTQ etc person. Can you believe that in Pakistan, a woman can be divorced for talking to a male stranger on the phone. I've seen it, I lived there for 4 years. In Pakistan, in particular, the law of the land actually states that a man may 'beat his wife lightly' as required by the the Council of Islamic Ideology. This is in line with the idea that a female is educated by her father then her brother then her husband !

Nantescalling · 21/01/2025 08:06

Almahart · 12/04/2024 11:03

Just wanted to thank whoever recommended The Push further up the thread. It was an incredibly moving and eye opening watch.

Can't find it! Could you add the link please?

Rachmorr57 · 21/01/2025 08:11

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Nantescalling · 21/01/2025 08:14

DramaLlamaBangBang · 11/04/2024 15:49

Of course there are abusers in all communities, and most abuse does come at the hands of White men, but where there are characteristics of certain groups that make it more difficult for women with that particular society to report a crime or escape from their situation, it does need to he labelled. Unfortunately in the case of honour crime, there is the additional layer of the entire family being complicit, including the mother/mother in law, in some cases protection from the wider community. Not to mention the ' flight risk' etc of someone disappearing to another country to escape capture, the ' disappearing of British girls to often Pakistan against their will, etc etc. These are specific characteristics of honour crimes that have to be looked at over and above the general male violence against women, so it has to be sub categorised. Saying ' But White men do it too' is not helpful to women who are under enormous pressure not to bring shame upon the family and who risk losing their entire family and community if they escape.

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When you say 'escape', are you talking about Asian women who are victimised for an 'hour' issue?

jannier · 21/01/2025 12:20

Nantescalling · 21/01/2025 07:59

Thank you so much for clarifying this. The idea that killing the person who has sinned and caused the loss of the family honour thus cleansing the family and restoring that honour is pretty rife in Muslim communities. It applies to girls who have sex before marriage, unfaithful wives, any LGBTQ etc person. Can you believe that in Pakistan, a woman can be divorced for talking to a male stranger on the phone. I've seen it, I lived there for 4 years. In Pakistan, in particular, the law of the land actually states that a man may 'beat his wife lightly' as required by the the Council of Islamic Ideology. This is in line with the idea that a female is educated by her father then her brother then her husband !

Edited
Show quote history

There's lots of warped interpretations of various religions I'm afraid and not in the true spirit of any. It's just an excuse to dominate and abuse hidden under a cloth....badly.

jannier · 21/01/2025 12:26

I do think this thread shows the very need to educate everyone in safeguarding and the reasons why we don't use a one name catch all phrase for what happens....murder or any abuse....are people arguing abuse is abuse so no need to break it down?

Notagoodenoughreason5 · 21/01/2025 19:53

Permafrosty

A true Muslim would not be depraved as it goes against theor religion.

Me wanting to know why men are so disgusting was not meant as a deflection, rather a musing. The men that committed these atrocities against those poor victims are not Muslim. They are using it to hide behind that faith. I don't give an ish if they pray to Allah or read the Qu'ran(sp). They are not legitimate followers of the Muslim faith!

Notagoodenoughreason5 · 21/01/2025 19:54

Excuse the typos

coxesorangepippin · 21/01/2025 20:01

Don't make it sound more glamorous than what it is

It's femicide

No honour involved, clearly

JHound · 21/01/2025 20:20

I don’t get the relevance to you being a feminist?

Honour crimes overwhelmingly impact women and girls but not exclusively. I also don’t have to be from a community to care about what impacts the people that are part of it.

PassingStranger · 21/01/2025 20:37

Honour crime?
There's nothing honorable about it?

User37482 · 21/01/2025 21:26

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 11/04/2024 12:12

I don't have the figures to hand but given how much violence against women and children is committed by white British men it would be very hypocritical to single out other ethnicities, unless there was clear evidence they commit significantly more offences as to justify it.

And by evidence I mean actual statistical evidence and not just examples of what the media reports. As referenced above Rochdale, Rotherham, Oxford are often used to infere that Asian / Muslim men are more likely to be abusers. Yet rarely do we see people using Glasgow, Wolverhampton / Walsall, or the international British paedophile ring to suggest the same of white British people.

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I agree that violence against women broadly is high and should be dealt with. I’m asian and the dynamic is different. Girls have been killed because they are suspected of having a boyfriend by their own fathers/brothers. That is not, I believe, a thing amongst white population.

The context is different and there is an underlying element of coercive control by weaponising male honour. It’s a specific crime with a specific “reason” and generally by specific groups. Doing this whole “oh all men are violent” thing hides the specific kind of violence perpetrated against specific groups for specific reasons. We should be curious about that as a society.

I personally see it as a betrayal of ethnic minority women living in Britain who should expect to have the same rights as white women when people try to fudge what happens to them within the “all men are violent”. Same as with the children groomed by gangs, trying to fudge it never benefits victims, it only benefits perpetrators.

Thelnebriati · 21/01/2025 22:17

You can't tackle a specific type of crime if you can't identify it or name it; and we also need accurate, detailed statistics. 'Honour' crimes are not like other types of MVAW.

stomachamelon · 21/01/2025 22:19

@User37482 that is such an insightful comment.
We seem to have such a problem in this country with tackling our failings wherever they materialise from.

jannier · 21/01/2025 23:14

coxesorangepippin · 21/01/2025 20:01

Don't make it sound more glamorous than what it is

It's femicide

No honour involved, clearly

And still a year later...it is not saying it's honourable it's labelling the type of killing and the sick justification used by the perpetrators the reason being you identify the twisted logic you try to educate the twisted support system you attempt to identify those at risk.