Honour-based crime up 62%

[Papyrophile]

According to the Family Law Centre, honour-based crime in the UK went up 62% from 2020-2022. For explanation, honour-based crime and abuse mostly affects women from SE Asian or Middle Eastern backgrounds where the cultural traditions are very strongly patriarchal, arranged marriages are routine and women are regarded as less important/valuable than men.

As a feminist, this is extraordinarily distasteful to me but I am not affected at all by it. How do other people see the situation?

Mediaeval practices have no place in Western (or any) society.

it's like using MAP instead of paedophile. Call it what it is. Domestic violence. Domestic murder whatever.

Using the term that those murderers use tells them in their heads (not in normal people's heads) that what they did is an "honour killing" and thus in their heads we are agreeing that is what it is.

But it’s not just domestic violence.

it’s a very specific form of domestic violence.

Using the terms that the murders have in their mind when they are punished for it reinforces what they are punished for.

As an asian woman it really bothers me that institutions often turn a blind eye incase of accusations of racism. I knew a guy years back who was trying to expand english language lessons for pakistani women (often overseas brides) and he appealed to the local Mosque for help with this and they flat our refused to be helpful. He was Pakistani himself and was trying his damndest to get Pakistani women engaged in the wider community (language lessons, exercise classes, help with finding jobs etc) and it was rebuffed repeatedly. They basically said their husbands will look after them. The biggest dangers are to those who are non english speaking. The best thing for women is to be engaged in the workplace where they are visible to other people, I don’t know how you do that.

I understand people are sometimes uncertain about others cultural norms but we are talking about people who are or wish to be British citizens, they should have the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else. We cannot have a two tier system of lower rights and lower responsibilities. Rotherham was definitely a situation where race played a massive part in allowing men to wholesale rape, abuse and traffic children.

I know this is not popular but I was a bit relived when the conservatives basically made it harder for people to just pick up a wife from a village and bring her to the UK with barely any questions asked. I understand the rules negatively impacted a lot of sincere and decent people but it was precisely those women who were completely isolated and away from their own families and language that were at the highest risk of abuse.

tbh the cultural norm in some other country doesn't bother me as much. It is not the cultural norm in the UK or Europe to treat women as property, and thus these phrases and actions have no place here.

I'm sure someone more up with legalese than me could make the case that these are hate crimes (based on sex, and race) and therefore the punishment should be harsher.

But that is an accurate description

For "honour" it's anything but accurate

Call it cultural murder. It's murder and there is nothing honourable about it

Just wanted to thank whoever recommended The Push further up the thread. It was an incredibly moving and eye opening watch.

I know we know what it means, but our use of it implies acceptance of the term. Which translates in the heads of those likely to carry out such a killing think we accept that "honour killing" is ok

Not sure about that one, Brefugee; it would take an unusual mindset to ever think this is okay, and with those who sadly have it there's probably little to be done beyond prosecuting

You simply can't reason with the sort of person who's gone down this hellhole, and while the many support services do an excellent job among the victims, the perpetrators are likely to consider this just one more attack/offence and deem it racist interference

@Papyrophile

This is aspects of Locdowns detrimental effect, and aftermath of the mistakes our British Gov created

The Dominoes effect pattern..

@Papyrophile
Shitty men from particular cultur taking advantage fully to the max of nasty covid and lockdowns in UK

Arseholes

I've just seen the wedding picture of the latest victim, Kulsuma Akter. Her husband has been charged with the murder of this young mother. She had been in contact with West Yorks Police previously.

The biggest dangers are to those who are non english speaking. The best thing for women is to be engaged in the workplace where they are visible to other people, I don’t know how you do that.

Absolutely. It is not ' inclusive' to enable women to be forced to live in absolute poverty ( or to be exploited in garment sweatshops for well below minimum wage) with no way of escape, where they cannot access basic services without pulling their children out of school to translate for them, disrupting their education too. But it is the men who will shout the loudest about respecting their ' culture' stand outside schools, live in poverty rather than allow their wives to be educated and able to get a job. Of course, some of the same problems also apply in other very traditional White communities ( travellers for example, in relation to domestic abuse and girls education). resolving those issues also results in the same complaints about ' respecting culture'

that is entirely my point. Everyone else knows there is no honour in these murders. The people that call it honour killing, hearing everyone else using those words is the arsehole that thinks "oh yes, see, they call it that, too"

We are not talking about rational people here, we are talking about men who would throw acid in someone's face then kill her for doing something they (but nobody else in the country) thinks dishonours them - the acid thrower. It is batshit and it is why we should use Cultural Murder (or similar or better)

No. Cultural Murder is highly offensive to the 99.99% of individuals from that culture who do NOT support so called honour crimes

That is entirely my point. Everyone else knows there is no honour in these murders. The people that call it honour killing, hearing everyone else using those words is the arsehole that thinks "oh yes, see, they call it that, too"

Ah yes, I see what you mean Brefugee - you're right of course, and in the comment that we're not talking about rational people here

I don't think the term should be sanitised. Usually honour is in inverted commas, or prefaced by 'so-called'. I think that makes its meaning pretty clear.

It's a very culturally specific crime, and I think amalgamation into other forms of violence against women elides the point and does a disservice to victims.

i said something like... because i don't know what we should call it. I know we should NOT be feeding their misogynistic delusions by using their term.

And I'm afraid if 99% of them are offended? then they can help by identifying which women are at risk and alerting the authorities. I could be offended by things people say about middle-aged, middle-class women. I know I'm not a twat so i ignore it.

Which goes back to the question....we have to label it with a unique label that allows people working with potential victims to be alert to risk factors therefore what label do we use?
I don't think the bigots who do these crimes give a shit what anyone outside their social group think, because in their eyes we are evil, corrupt sinners anyway.

And such a label already exists.

Note that CPS even labels these as “so called honour crimes”.

Very off topic but how do you suppose people from within a culture but who don’t agree with “honour killings” would be able to identify women at risk? (Answer - they can’t any more than you or I can)

In Islamist countries, men are routinely murdered (under government sanction) for the “crime” of loving other men. It’s a fraction of the women murdered, but still enragingly “normal”.

I know but people keep saying it's wrong I think it accurately describes the warped mentality of the perpetrators. It allows us to get on and do our work no confusion.

Arriving late and having had wine after a busy day, but I have read every post (glancingly, I concede) I am starting to think that you are all onto an important point when you suggest that dignifying mosogynist violence as "honour" based is a way for the community to excuse the crime. "It's not abuse or femicide, it's a proud man protecting the clan's honour."

But it isn't; it's naked abuse of physical strength and economic power, and as long as it is tacitly excused and stays under the radar, nothing will change.

Anecdata, for which I offer my apologies, but my family live in a small-ish Midland market town that's built massive amounts of suburban sprawl housing in the last 20 years, which is mainly white. The town centre population is roughly 30% Pakistani or Bangladeshi, plus a lot of east Europeans (the two groups don't appear to mix at all), and older people who have been there forever. Both Pakistani and east European men swagger around projecting dominance: they even try to intimidate my DM who is 89 and uses a stick or frame into stepping off the pavement to avoid impeding them; there is no thought of them politely stepping aside to let her through because she is old and a little frail. The east Europeans are better; most of her neighbours are Bulgarian, Albanian, and they are much kinder neighbours, talk and chat, because they are all trying to improve their English to get a better job.

I don't live there, but I suspect the local rozzers spend more time trying to understand their different criminal arrangements than worrying about domestic violence.

There’s a lot of comments about it just being male violence but it isn’t. It is called honour crime is for a reason. Most male offenders who commit violence against females do so under the radar as best they can and, especially with domestic abuse, they present a different side of them to others. Very few would openly say to their family they are violent to their wives/children. Honour based crime is different, there are often multiple offenders from the same family committing the crime and they do it to save face with their community for the perceived dishonour that the family member has brought on their family. This is so very different to the typical VAWG crimes and with the perpetrator being praised for it they feel they have done the right thing.

We absolutely need to talk about this and not lump it in with similar crimes. It doesn’t mean one type is more or less that the other, just different.

I'm thinking aloud here, but surely a large part of domestic violent crime against women and children is born of frustration and inadequacy and anger. But to kill or maim a woman for "honour" when the family have none to lose in the eyes of anyone in the UK, where they have chosen to settle?

I really don't understand why anyone would come to the UK to settle and want to bring all the historic cultural baggage too. And I also object to the notion that anyone should be permitted to do so. You came here, you have chosen UK society physically and explicitly, so our rules trump yours, because this is the country we made for us, and that you like enough to want to live here.