My 4 year old is driving me insane

[upthewallie]

Maybe I'm expecting too much but she's just such hard work.

Every time we go to do something fun, she never wants to leave. She's so defiant.

Everything is ' NO '.

No matter what I try to do, she just doesn't do as she's told.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from her ?

For example today we went to soft play and when it was time to leave, I tried to distract immediately with ' hey susie let's go to the toy shop '. I genuinely was going to take her there and she was like ' NO ' so I said, we do need to go now though. So I went over to her with her shoes in my hand and she was sticking her tongue out at me and laughing at me going ' da da da da da ' and blowing at me. So I said, put your shoes on. She said no. Then I said ok I can see you're having trouble listening right now, so I'm going to help you. She was kicking me whilst I was trying to put her shoes on and sticking her tongue out.

Anyway I managed to get her out. I told her it wasn't acceptable and therefore we were not going to the toy shop because she didn't listen and she kicked me etc.

Later on I asked her about it and asked her why she didn't listen and kicked me when we needed to leave and she said she was just playing. I explained sometimes we can't just play and it's not nice to kick etc.

Anyway it's like this a lot when we need to leave places and I'm sick and tired of it.

Hair drying and brushing can be a challenge as well sometimes. It's very frustrating and nothing I do helps. Any advice ?

How do you react/what do you say to her when she’s upset?

This will be a big clue as to why she is struggling to regulate her emotions. Do you ignore/dismiss/validate/invalidate/acknowledge?

Have you ever read a parenting book or blog? This is all basic stuff.

Thanks, this is nice ! Makes me feel great !

I have read how to talk so little kids will listen. It's a nice book but the strategies haven't really worked.

I didn't make her responsible for my feelings and I'm not one to tell her that she's ' making mummy sad '. Just two days ago I was in the car with my friend and she was saying exactly this to her 4 year old who would not stop having a tantrum and kicking her seat as we were coming back from a day out.. when I explained it to my daughter she actually did understand that it wasn't particularly nice to act like she does sometimes. I'm not sure it's going to change anything, but she at least seemed to get it.

No I don't invalidate her feelings.

Also - a child playing in a trolley, shock horror. What is the big deal? Supermarkets are boring. ‘I can’t let you do that with the trolley. I’m worried you will get hurt.’ ‘If you do it again I will have to lift you out. OK I’m going to lift you out now.’

Yes inherently this isn't an issue. It's her attitude that's the issue for me. Continuously refusing to push off into the isle, sticking her tongue out and saying ' ba ba ba ba ba ba ' and laughing and saying ' NO ! ' really loudly etc. that was more the issue. Kind of enjoying being disobedient. However I'm sure if I asked her why she did that, she'd say she was playing and having fun.

Sorry for my harsh tone, I was feeling frustrated that so many PP are pointing out that your coercive and illogical punishments and bribery are not going to work.

Shes hoping for a reaction which you seem to be working on not giving.

What's she like with her dad?

Did your mother's approach work?
And were you traumatised by it ?😉

This is the old "red dress or blue dress" options. Give her limited options - hold up two items of clothing - for which there is a positive choice.

"We have to go in 10 minutes - would you like to have 5 goes on the slide or a drink and snack before we go"

How about telling her you're not going out to do anything nice because she behaves badly when it's time to go home. Extract a promise from her that she'll be good. If she's not good then going out is not an option for a few weeks.

Have you consulted with her school to see what her behaviour is like there? Her teacher may have an insight if there are any concerns re SEN. I see that you describe her behaviour as ‘spirited’ but I’d be calling it unacceptable. The kicking, goading, defiance etc is not necessarily’normal’ and it seems like some very clear boundaries and consequences need to be established.

You’ve had some excellent advice on the setting alarm/giving warnings etc but it’s also important to make it very clear what the consequences are if she disobeys you. Not just the deprivation of an extra treat like the toy shop but a real consequence, ie not being allowed visit cousins or attend her favourite activity that week for example. Or no more soft play until she knows she is able to behave herself. She won’t like it but it needs to be made crystal clear what you find unacceptable and have no tolerance for.

it sounds to me like you’re a good Mum and parenting is bloody hard but I think it pays dividends to enforce some tough love.

OP I think you're doing a great job. 4 year olds can be awful. My DS was a tough toddler- ages 3-4 nearly broke me but he was a lovely teen and is a great young adult. Keep plodding on. Be as consistent as you can and don't beat yourself up if she does make you lose your cool- definitely happened to me. I don't think there is any magic solution to this other than time- this stage will pass!

There seems to be a real mismatch between the parents saying 'I got it right and if you do exactly the same as me you'd get it right too' and those saying '4 is a tricky age to tell, you need to keep working on yourself to be absolutely consistent and age appropriate in your responses BUT your DD may not be neurotypical'.

In which case you'd need to adapt what & how you ask things of her, to help improve her response.

Even with pre-school staff, teachers and educators, there can often be real blind spots to how ASD, ADHD, AuDHD, ODD/PDA and other conditions present and how to best respond to them. Your DD may indeed be completely neurotypical & just a bit rude because she's been allowed to be.

BUT would it really be that much effort to borrow a couple of books that have been recommended in this thread from the library to educate yourself about these conditions & some research based tips on the best strategies for a positive outcome if she does? Or even just better strategies if she doesn't!

If your DD does have any neurodevelopmental difference, trust me, you're going to need to know all about it to be her best advocate throughout her school years. And you might as well start work now on finding the management strategies that work to give her & future teachers a fair chance of knowing what WILL work within the school system.

I'm sure plenty of people will roll their eyes at suggesting the 'alphabet soup' reasons for poor behaviour. But I'm not suggesting it as an excuse - if she is wired a bit differently, surely the best thing to do is to try to identify HOW she's different as soon as possible? And then start work on the strategies best suited to getting a good response with that specific condition.

She will have to learn to manage herself within the standard school system regardless, so you can help both of you (and future schools) sooner by finding out more.

PDA/ODD or the frustration/lack of time management/emotional dysregulation that comes with ADHD seem to be the key flags you've identified within your OP. Even allowing for the facts these aren't fully developed in ANY 4 year old! Maybe read up a bit on these & see if you recognise more patterns? Some good books have already been recommended in this thread which provide parenting strategies specifically adjusted to these conditions.

Good luck & be consistent

She was completely fine leaving soft play today and a general delight.

When I said we need to go in a few minutes she said ' ok mama, let's go ' and then she said something like ' see mama, I didn't do ba ba ba ba ba ba mama '.. she knows what's right and what's wrong for sure.

In general things I've noticed is that she just loves responsibly and to be helpful and will literally follow every single instruction down to a T if it's around clearing up/ or her helping me in any way really. She also loves to help do stuff for her little brother when I ask her to and is literally perfectly capable of doing it. In fact, she asks for more. They just want to be useful and be treated with that kind of respect I think, not like a child. They want to be spoken to like they're capable and not ' bossed around '. Obviously this can't always work, but reframing some of the instructions is helpful. This is also what is written in ' how to talk so little kids will listen '. You should talk to them as if you're their manager.

Anyway just on another note, before people think I take her to a soft play every day- I don't. It's a tiny soft play, at my gym. She goes to the creche while I exercise and then she gets to play after. That's why we are there a lot. It's not really a massive treat for her, just kind of the norm during holidays especially.

There seems to be a real mismatch between the parents saying 'I got it right and if you do exactly the same as me you'd get it right too' and those saying '4 is a tricky age to tell, you need to keep working on yourself to be absolutely consistent and age appropriate in your responses BUT your DD may not be neurotypical'.

I don't understand why everyone has to be ND nowadays. My friend's kids are so similar. Also, they all have good and bad days.

Well, specifically because around 10% of the population aren't neurotypical and you were the one on here saying your 4 year had excruciatingly rude behaviour & you didn't know how to handle it.

But that's fine, if you're just raising a rude 4 year old who categorically isn't in that 10% & you've had enough tips now, carry on!

This is not very nice at all really.

Why are you getting touchy ?

I didn't write a post questioning whether she is NT or ND. That would be a different conversation.

I'm not sure why you need to be so unkind.

We are all doing our best.

I had one like this. The more you pushed forward the more she moved sideways.

I did find that being honest about how I was feeling helped. After all, we all know that how you behave is what makes them respond, annoying as that is, so if you're feeling irritable they're going to be a pain and if you're in a good mood things tend to run more smoothly. I would say things like my crossometer is here (hold up my hand to show a level on my face) and if you keep ignoring me/whatever it will keep going up until I am completely cross' and she found that such an interesting idea that she was invested in making the crossometer go down (we never did find out what would happen if it got filled up).

Time has no meaning to little kids so rather than warning 5 minutes etc say 'one more go on the slide'. Sometimes seeing how fast they can put their shoes on, or saying 'can you get your shoes on before I pack away/ get your bro in his pushchair/whatever works (and sometimes it doesn't). Basically as soon as you actually lose your shit it is all over so you need to find ways to stop YOURSELF from sliding into a tantrum!

As an aside my DD did turn out to be ND but it doesn't matter either way at this stage - whatever works, works.

I categorically wasn't being unkind. In my first post I said "Your DD may indeed be completely neurotypical & just a bit rude because she's been allowed to be". Which is no different from what scores of other posters on this thread have already said (often in far less kind terms than that!)

Realistically, I think your response of "I don't see why everyone has to be ND nowadays" is FAR, FAR less kind to those parents on this thread who have had to go through hell figuring out behaviour management strategies for children who experience the world in a fundamentally different way.

But you've not got one of those, so aren't you lucky?!

In my opinion your reply was flippant and not at all nice.

What I said was not at all mean, it's just a fact that people jump on labelling kids nowadays.

My DD may well be ND, we don't know how things will pan out.

In my opinion, it's no wonder your daughter has no clue whether she's coming or going, being rewarded or reprimanded, or being given the same cues consistently from one day to the next. I wish you all luck with deciding what your position is and sticking to it consistently.

Count to 3, then pick her up and carry her back. You're the boss

This was my initial thought - although 4 is still quite young and they are all so different. DS has ASD and ADHD and would never respond to direct instructions or orders. It stressed him out and led to meltdowns.

Not saying OPs DD has SEN but it is a possibility. It may be worth her trying 'normal' parenting techniques (time out, naughty step, consequences, stickers. etc) but also SEN techniques which are different. We always gave advance warnings where possible, then calm comments such as 'we always put our shoes on before school don't we?' rather than any direct requests.

At soft play I probably said 'we need to go and see Daddy now don't we so shall I get your shoes?' or similar.

Not that it always worked - I remember carrying him out of a soft play centre aged about 6 - him kicking and screaming and me hanging on to one arm and one leg just to get him away. Similar when he lay down in front of a bus in a main road........

Hopefully it's just a stage - good luck!!

Think at this age you just have to allow for it and start ‘leaving’ 15 minutes before you actually need to.
I would also give her a little warning of ‘we need to leave in 5 minutes’ so go and have 1 less play…. (Not that a 4 year old knows what 5 minutes is…. )
I used to take away something when my DD played up…. So she had no sweets after soft play for example… you did that with the toy shop .. not much more you could do!
100% agree I’d try to stay calm though…. Maybe if they still refuse I’d just grab their hand and match them out without shoes on rather than get kicked…. Or carry them out if they’re light enough…. They’ll think twice next time and hopefully just get their shoes on…
Does she care if you leave without her? I used to say ‘right I’m going… and my Dd would leg it after me!

If you've tried all the normal parenting strategies and non of them work then maybe have a look at Pathalogical Demand Avoidance. Normal parenting strategies don't work on kids with PDA, you have to try different strategies. Help4Psychology do a great screening process either free or for a small amount of money ( have used them mysel), they specialise in PDA and girls with behavioural issues so it would probably be a great way to put your mind at rest about whether this is normal 4 year old behaviour or not.

@T1Dmama I used to take away something when my DD played up…. So she had no sweets after soft play for example…

I’m shocked at the number of people who still think it’s effective and moral to coerce and bribe children.

It may sometimes achieve compliance but at what cost to their future relationship with food/you/their siblings/their future partner. Such an unhealthy way to model a relationship - which should be based on respect not blackmail, force and resentment.