My 4 year old is driving me insane

[upthewallie]

Maybe I'm expecting too much but she's just such hard work.

Every time we go to do something fun, she never wants to leave. She's so defiant.

Everything is ' NO '.

No matter what I try to do, she just doesn't do as she's told.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from her ?

For example today we went to soft play and when it was time to leave, I tried to distract immediately with ' hey susie let's go to the toy shop '. I genuinely was going to take her there and she was like ' NO ' so I said, we do need to go now though. So I went over to her with her shoes in my hand and she was sticking her tongue out at me and laughing at me going ' da da da da da ' and blowing at me. So I said, put your shoes on. She said no. Then I said ok I can see you're having trouble listening right now, so I'm going to help you. She was kicking me whilst I was trying to put her shoes on and sticking her tongue out.

Anyway I managed to get her out. I told her it wasn't acceptable and therefore we were not going to the toy shop because she didn't listen and she kicked me etc.

Later on I asked her about it and asked her why she didn't listen and kicked me when we needed to leave and she said she was just playing. I explained sometimes we can't just play and it's not nice to kick etc.

Anyway it's like this a lot when we need to leave places and I'm sick and tired of it.

Hair drying and brushing can be a challenge as well sometimes. It's very frustrating and nothing I do helps. Any advice ?

I’ve got a very strong willed 4 year old. Best tip I got was to change things around and say “you can’t do this, but here’s what you CAN do”. Rather than just no’ing everything you can give an alternative option. When I remember to do it, it’s usually well received. That or let them choose between two options of doing things. Look sometimes, they’re still going to be dragged out the park. You can win some battles, but not all the battles. Good luck!

Agree with the poster who wondered if you are doing too much with her ?

there need to be some days of staying at home and just playing with her toys, with maybe a walk to the park to burn off some energy

Highly recommend joining the Gentle Parenting UK group on Facebook if you haven't already. They are really supportive and helpful with these types of scenarios. They also have a whole pinned thread of links etc for 4 year olds as they all become tricky, often referred to as "4nager".

I only recommend the group as the way you talked to her sounds like you are following gentle parenting principles.

Usually it's natural consequences they encourage though as they don't get the link between the behaviour and the consequence else.

E.g refusing to wear their coat, so they get wet and feel cold.

Someone has given a good example for soft play before and not leaving but I cannot remember it off the top of my head.

Sounds like mine, some kids are more “spirited” than others 🙄. I’ve carried mine out of plenty of places kicking and screaming as a toddler She’s a lovely girl most of the time but she still struggled with transitions.

We have to give her a rundown of the schedule for the day before we leave the house. So we’ll tell her it’s lunch, softplay, supermarket. We have to give her time warnings, we are going in 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes go do whatever you want to do for the last 5 minutes. We also let her take her turn choosing lunch and if we have flexibility we’ll ask her what order she wants to stuff in.

Would highly recommend the “explosive child”. They have a checklist in there that really helped us understand the points of conflict during our day. Some kids are less compliant and need stronger boundaries and more managing than other kids. But tbh I don’t think it’s unusual.

You could maybe try forewarning her of plans before you leave the house. Eg “ok so we’re going to soft play then after that we are going to the toy shop” and I’d also throw in a “but remember last time when you kicked me when we were leaving? If that happens again then we can’t do the toy shop after” then she’s had her warning of the consequence. Can be reminded as you say it’s time to leave “remember what I said, can we get our shoes on nicely so we can do our next job?”
if she doesn’t then it’s just a “I told you what would happen, you made the choice to hurt me so we can’t do it now”

I don’t have any advice but I have 3 year old boy who doesn’t listen to a word I say EVER, and gets a kick out of doing the opposite to what I’ve said. It’s so difficult so I understand. I’ve tried everything absolutely every approach out there, I get so worked up with him and I know it’s not recommended and I feel guilty for it but the only thing that works when he won’t leave somewhere or get dressed:shoes on is saying fine stay here but I’m off. And if he’s cheeky and defiant in the house he gets put to his bedroom for 5 minutes. It doesn’t change anything at all, he doesn’t learn from any of it so honestly I just don’t know 🫤

Counting down, nine warnings, visual timetables, clocks etc only work for some children in my experience, and especially the 10, 5, 1 minute warnings only work for children who don't struggle with demands. My son ignores things like these cause he can't deal with the idea of leaving/doing something and then when it's time and really has to start/finish/do something, he freaks out. Despite warnings. And timers send him into a tailspin.

I know you are saying you don't suspect special needs OP but do a bit of googling on PDA (Pathological Demand avoidance). Even if your daughter doesn't have this, the strategies would help with presenting "demands" in a way that helps the child to accept them better.

Hi Op! I don’t have any other suggestions other than to hang in there. My DD is 4.5 and for a week now I think we turned a corner. She listens now, more than a week ago anyway.
Keep going even though it’s exhausting and exasperating 💐

She's probably fucking exhausted.

I think this is partly just a normal 4 year old (mine has driven me nuts this last year too) and also it sounds like you could be firmer. It seems like you only said you weren’t going to the toy shop afterwards, I would have mentioned it as a consequence if she didn’t follow my instructions.

so…

1. Suzie have one more go on the slide and then we’ll be going.
2. ok Suzie, times up so get your shoes (to which she says no)
3. count down from 5 slowly, as I get to 3 I would say, if you don’t get your shoes on by the time I get to 1 then….(insert consequence).
4. if I get to 1, then reiterate the consequence now applies.
5. if I have to physically put on shoes and she’s kicking me then identify a further consequence if that continues.

my son has had some major kickbacks so I know this doesn’t always work and sometimes they spiral, but I have probably had to deal with 5/6 epic meltdowns over a year, but that reduced to a lot of stropiness and now often means my 4 year old just does what I ask when I start counting. It’s a long game, but it pays off eventually.

I'm not quite sure what my mother would have done if I'd kicked her when I was 4 but it would have been deeply deeply unpleasant. It would not have involved missing out on a trip to the toy shop. It would not have been a negotiation either.

Have you read how to talk so little kids will listen?
Have you tried being playful?

You sound as if you are doing your best, parenting is difficult and children don’t come with a guide book

i think it is significant that you mention it reminds you of the bullying you experienced at school. We all have the child we were inside us.

as others have said, she is only four and this is typical behaviour. I used to find rewarding good behaviour and to a certain ignoring the bad useful. Children look to parents for guidance and to give a child so much responsibility regarding decision making makes them feel insecure.

it will get easier!

4 year olds are hellish. I think you just have to survive the days until they get a bit more reasonable. That's what I'm doing anyway. My 6yo is lovely (99% of the time!) So there is hope.

Suzie, we’re leaving softplay in 15 mins.
suzie, we’re leaving softplay in 10 mins.
Suzie, we’re leaving softplay in 5 mins.
suzie, it’s time to leave - either you can get your shoes on and walk out on your own or I can lift you and put your shoes on and take you out - it’s your choice.

if it still doesn’t work - I’ll count to 3, you can either do it yourself or ill do it for you: either way we are leaving now.

Try this and get back to me ;)

I teach a 6 yr old child who reacts very similarly to requests. I have found that telling him that we can come back to something at a later date really helps. So, “Dave (not his real name), it will be time to go in five minutes, but don’t worry because we will come back and play another day. Let’s put that (random object) in a special place so we can find it next time.”

@upthewallie
hair drying - just let it dry naturally. do it earlier in the day if you need to so she doesn't go to bed with wet hair. don't use a hair dryer on a 4 year old. Better for the environment

hair brushing - it has to be done if she wants it long. if she won't brush it then cut it short so she doesn't get nits. Make it clear to her that she has the choice of brushed long hair, or short hair.

won't leave places? Make it very clear before you go that if she won't leave properly then you will not be taking her to such places in future. Just like if she makes a fuss about the TV being turned off, then the TV will not be put on in the first place. These are consequences that she has to learn to understand and if you can help her understand now then school will be a whole lot easier for her when she starts

So there is a pattern, a habit that needs breaking.

So next time, deep breath and no cross voice.

Not getting a toy or an icecream IMHO isn't a consequence.

Can she count fairly well?

I agree with the person who said count down to things, so in 3 mins etc. I'd be tempted to get a cheap timer / stop watch so she can see how much time she has left.

Even a sand or liquid timer might help. They are often used with children who have SEN but that doesn't mean they are not useful for children who do not have SEN.

You could also try a visual 'timetable' so she can see today we are doing X, Y and Z.

Personally I think you are doing all the right things! I just think that having a 4 year old is a lot 😂! This sounds like pretty normal behaviour to me and you are doing a great job dealing with it, it might not feel like you are but I think from what you described you absolutely are. Raising kids is tough and I totally get it ♥️

If you are able to get a break, whether that’s a few hours to yourself doing something nice or an evening or something. I think a break really helps gather your strength and go back less exhausted.

This was my thought too. My DD has always been extremely hard work. The stricter I try and be, the worse she is. No amount of tone, anger, facial expression or anything have any impact. She’s just been diagnosed AuDHD.

Low demand parenting for the win 🙌🏽

If you are taking her out every day in the holidays maybe she's just overwhelmed and needs more control of her life?
It sounds like (at least from a skim of your posts) that you've decided what to do and then you are just trying to find the incantation to make your child fit in.
When our son was very small we tried to do that and pack every day with activities and we felt similar to how you seem to, because nothing worked and everyone was stressed at these points.
Once we really listened more deeply and realised it was us that thought he should do all these activities, things gotr better.
So a trip to the swimming pool turned into a trip to the library, park run (for parents) turned into a lie in and maybe a walk.
Yes I'd love to have a child that wants all the same things as me but I don't, and by meeting in the middle a lot more, he's a lot calmer and so am I.
I would agree consider neurodiversity, our son is being considered for ASD. Not just consider in your son but in yourself.
Another tip that worked once he could read (and even before) was to get a mini white board or paper would work, and make lists together. So it could be getting ready routine, how much time for each task, or what we will eat for dinner, or activities for the day.
Often I would put exciting activities and he will choose them, but other times he will choose staying in or just going to the garden, he knows himself best.
Good luck! It's not easy!

Whatever approach you take you need to be 100% consistent about it and follow through on everything you say without exception.

I count down (not up, so there is 0 as a fixed end point), and if the instruction isn’t followed there is a consequence. I give time/event warnings for everything, and there are unwavering rules that apply in every single situation without exception, e.g. we hold hands when crossing a road.

DD1 was testing boundaries at 3 and 4, but now at 5 this approach works every time. Not because it’s necessarily ‘the’ approach that will work with every child, but because I never deviated from it. DD2 is 2.7 and already starting to understand the counting down from copying her sister.

You shouldn't be getting worked up by a four year old. Hold the line and be without emotion. She is enjoying the game right now and it'll only get worse.