My 4 year old is driving me insane

[upthewallie]

Maybe I'm expecting too much but she's just such hard work.

Every time we go to do something fun, she never wants to leave. She's so defiant.

Everything is ' NO '.

No matter what I try to do, she just doesn't do as she's told.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from her ?

For example today we went to soft play and when it was time to leave, I tried to distract immediately with ' hey susie let's go to the toy shop '. I genuinely was going to take her there and she was like ' NO ' so I said, we do need to go now though. So I went over to her with her shoes in my hand and she was sticking her tongue out at me and laughing at me going ' da da da da da ' and blowing at me. So I said, put your shoes on. She said no. Then I said ok I can see you're having trouble listening right now, so I'm going to help you. She was kicking me whilst I was trying to put her shoes on and sticking her tongue out.

Anyway I managed to get her out. I told her it wasn't acceptable and therefore we were not going to the toy shop because she didn't listen and she kicked me etc.

Later on I asked her about it and asked her why she didn't listen and kicked me when we needed to leave and she said she was just playing. I explained sometimes we can't just play and it's not nice to kick etc.

Anyway it's like this a lot when we need to leave places and I'm sick and tired of it.

Hair drying and brushing can be a challenge as well sometimes. It's very frustrating and nothing I do helps. Any advice ?

I feel like she's behaving like this because she knows it winds you up and she knows you'll cave into her demands.

Losing your temper isn't the answer - keep your cool but remain authoritative and calm.

Alternatively is your partner strict? My mum was a massive pushover but we behaved because Dad was strict. If it had been just her parenting is we would have been so spoilt

There are some immediate fixes you can implement to change this.

Oh yeah she definitely gets a rise out of me, regularly! Just today I really really focused on not getting worked

This is the crux of it. When you can stay consistently cool the boundary testing will lose all appeal. Those reactions are irresistible to them, but it also actually terrifies them that they have the power to ruffle you.

It’s always us that needs to be ‘fixed’, not them. Why are you getting triggered? How can you widen your ‘window of tolerance’. Deep breathing, therapy and keeping yourself regulated, fed, self-care etc. are usually where the answers lie

Trying to distract her is an insult to her intelligence she can see straight through it

Highly recommend reading How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Janet Lansbury’s Unruffled website/podcasts

Also, star charts, rewards, praise and unrelated consequences do not work. They fail to develop intrinsic motivation. They are also a form of coercion, which they then mimic.

Natural consequences work, like running out of time to get to the toy shop in your example.

In terms of praise, pointing to the action not the attribute is what fosters intrinsic motivation. ‘You got your shoes on by yourself, that was very independent’ as opposed to ‘good girl, you’re so clever etc’ (this type of praise actually causes low-self esteem by creating dependence on external validation

My child went through a stage of refusing to put shoes on to go out, some days it was a full blown argument. One day I’d had enough and I said if you don’t put your shoes on you will go out without them. No shoes. I picked child up and put them outside. Quick change of mind and begged for shoes. I said but you didn’t want shoes. Wasn’t an issue again after that.

Absolutely this 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

I wouldn't use things like toy shop as a bribe to get ready when you ask. It's not going to improve the situation. When you say it's time to leave give them the choice (after telling them there's 5mins left, warnings always help) "do you want me to put on the shoes or for you to put on your shoes?"
No discussion about if you're leaving or what's happening afterwards. Just we're leaving, who's putting on the shoes? If she says no then you put on the shoes. With my little girl after a little while of her fighting it she'd decide halfway through me shoving shoes on her that actually she did want to do it. Great. Then little while on again she would just put her shoes on.
Keep the demands and choices simple. Very simple. When you leave the house don't say we're leaving because we need to do xyz. Just say, we're going out, who is putting your shoes on?

As a side note on the hair. She doesn't need her hair drying with anything but a good towel. Get one of those head towels, they're great and dry it to a good point. If you're using a hair dryer it's probably too much sometimes for her. As for brushing, it probably hurts. I hated getting my hair brushed by my mum because she always always pulled it no matter how often I got upset or how much she said she was being gentle. I taught my little girl to brush her own hair from when she was about 4 because it was a struggle for us too. She's great at it now. I don't know what type of hair your daughter has but I use a mini tangle teaser for my daughter and it's great, plus it's easy for her to use.
4 year olds are hard. Just gotta keep trying different things till you find what works for you both x

So personally I think she should be getting ready to leave but we can all understand why she doesn't want to. I wouldn't offer an incentive to leave. I would warn her we are leaving in 15/10/2 minutes and if she refused to put on her shoes I'd warn her sternly to get them on now, if that didn't work I'd pick her up and remove her and the shoes from the situation. Either to the toilet or quiet area to talk or to the car. I wouldn't argue with her. Don't let her upset you or see she's upset you. Stay firm.
I would maybe discuss before you go what you will do and that you won't accept tongue pulling etc. I always found with mine I could say.. We could go to the play centre if I could be sure you would leave when I asked....
Re hair.. Don't dry it but let her brush at the same time as you. Make it a fun time even if you sing a song and say.. See if we can finish your hair by the time we finish singing the song? Or beat Alexa putting a tune on?
Mum of 5, one extra foster, 9 grandchildren x

I don’t agree with this. If you’re children know the play centre is a treat and if they have a tantrum they won’t go anytime soon, go early etc then they’ll stop doing it.

I wouldn’t say it’s typical that age. I have a NT 6yr old & a SEN 10yr old, so coming at it from a slightly different angle. My SEN child struggles a lot with transitions & following instruction. Sometimes they just like to get a rise!

the things that work for us, which may help:

• regular countdowns, from about 20 mins before you need to leave, whether that’s leaving for somewhere you need to go, or leaving for a fun activity.
• rather than “put your shoes/coat on” we go with “do you want these shoes, or these?”
• the absolute hardest is be as boring as possible when they misbehave. Still have consequences for bad behaviour, and make them clear & follow through, but not in the moment they are acting out. If you say it’s time to go and she kicks off, just calmly repeat it and wait, “let me know when you’re ready”. If you wait to the point you have to grab her hand and guide her out, still don’t get angry. Keep a stony face, lead her out, put her shoes on (no Ouch if she’s kicking you, etc.) if she runs away, don’t chase. Just sit there and be as boring as you can. Once she is where you need her to be & calmer, you can calmly explain that X behaviour wasn’t acceptable & x consequence. But calmly & boring with no rise.

A lot of it is getting that reaction from us in the moment. It is sooooo hard not to do, especially when you know they’re trying it on! But it really does work if you follow through consistently & stay completely boring! My boys now understand that “let me know when you’re ready ..” is me quietly getting extremely annoyed and they respond very quickly 🤣

With my 4 year old we give her the time we are leaving or stopping. We then give her a count down I.e 10 min 5 min ok last time. It she creates I pick her up. She can ask questions she can discuss why but if I say: stop, come her, let go home it’s non negotiable. She can ask why we need to leave etc but she leaves. As a toddler it was cute/ harmless but as a child it’s a matter of safety. For example o told her not to leave out drive (leads onto a semi main road with schools etc on) she said ok and was running up and down not leaving the drive. Other side is I don’t ask her to do something without meaning it. If she ever did what you’re describing there would be consequences. No play time no reading I.e grounded. I will ask nicely but if I have to ask a 3rd time I’m telling you.

This is not normal behavior for a 4 year old
a toddler yes
occasionally when overwhelmed and or tired perhaps for a 4 year old and yes the push out buttons and such

next time giver her 5 min warning - no distraction no next exciting thing etc

just 5 more min of play and we have to go

then you go

you can then say right it is time to go but you can skip or walk to the car

if she says no you still go
just say calmly well it's time to go so we are leaving now come on shoes on

even if you have to drag her out kicking and screaming you go

after a few times this happens she should start to behave

if it doesn't work consider if she has some sort of additional needs like PDA or something as this is behavior I'd expect in a much younger child

Don’t want to diagnose but this sounds very much like my son who has ADHD and PDA. He basically gets hits of dopamine from arguing with me and he can’t cope with any form of authority and starts to perceive threat if someone acts as though they are not his equal. He’s 10 now and still extremely challenging and drives me insane. All I can recommend is childcare haha.

Yeh, sounds like you're judging the lady who walked out with a tantrumming child, but actually surely that was the best thing she could have done? I've been that mother. Many of us have. I'd have been pretty offended if I saw a fellow mother looking at me 'amazed' while I was doing that. As the OP has said, it's not like you can 'disallow' tantrums. What would you suggest a parent does if a child starts having a tantrum because they don't want to leave softplay? Say 'tantrums are not allowed'? 🤦🏼‍♀️

That's just random, unrelated punishments though. They're not good behaviour management strategies, I'm afraid.

If you're using rewards, they should be earned by her meeting predetermined targets that you have discussed with her, and shouldn't be taken away for any unrelated reason once she has earned them. If you take them away once they're earned, she is likely to internalise the 'bad' behaviour. You want to be very clear that the behaviour is 'bad', not her. Her current 'bad' behaviour doesn't erase her previous 'good' behaviour.

Consequences should be directly related to the behaviour/environment. You could say "I see you're struggling to listen to me when we are trying to leave soft play. I can't keep you safe if you can't listen to me, so we won't be able to come here again until you've improved your listening skills. We can talk about it at home after we've been to the toy shop"

Then you start a new target where you work on her listening skills at home, with the promise of a future reward of going back to soft play. So for example, she has to put her shoes on within 5 minutes of being asked every day for an entire week, and then she has earned a soft play trip at the weekend. Or some other fun activity she wants to do... But once she's done the work and earned the activity, you shouldn't take it off her just because she's pushed your buttons about something else on some other occasion.

So yes, you would still go to the toy shop after soft play, especially if that's a reward she's earned for something else!

Taking TV time away makes sense if it's a distraction from getting ready for school, or she's getting overstimulated by it. That's not a punishment, that's the same as not letting her eat 3 Easter eggs in one sitting.

But, for example, if she's smacked someone at the park, it makes no sense to take TV time away later.

I hope I've explained this well enough... The psychology of using rewards is complicated, I don't use them for that reason. Big fan of logical consequences, though!

Is there a chance its PDA Pathological Demand Avoidance (can occur with and without being on the spectrum)

The teacher will sort her out when she roars at her because you sound like you've never told her off.
My son tried this once with me and he was out the door faster than than could say sorry.

Sounds like you think it’s good for kids to be scared of adults?

Wow yes you’ve achieved compliance but at what cost to their emotional well-being? You can treat a child with respect and achieve intrinsically motivated moral behavior, not just compliance because they’re scared of you.

Firstly want to say you sound like a great mum and MANY parents will remember these years.
Literally the only things I would suggest is doing a count down as that really helped my kids. 30 minutes warning, 20, 10, 5 etc or whatever works for the situation this allows DD to know expectations.
Try not to react to naughty behaviour but really praise good. DD leaves without a fuss point it out and well done/ your proud/ high five/ hug….. she will love the praise.
Stick with being firm and setting boundaries so if kicking no ice cream, toy etc
In a short period of time she will change again and you will be thankful for all the hard work. Good luck 🥹

Why does she need all these treats and days out? She doesn't need to go to the toy shop after soft play. Maybe she's just overwhelmed after Easter holidays crammed full of days out and expectations of her to always be amenable and sweet tempered and do as she's told.

Do you think she should be behaving in the way you want because "Susie i spent all this money on you, you should be grateful?"

4 year olds don't work like that. They are quite often ungrateful and don't see any link between someone taking them for a day out , and them putting their shoes on. She's not picking on you like the boys at school, that's you projecting - this is normal 4yo behaviour. She's trying to figure out where the boundaries are. She's probably tired and over stimulated.

Cut back on the days out and treats, spend more time chilling at home (interesting that her behaviour improved after you stopped taking her out so much when she was 2.5).

Reward charts did work very well at that age for mine - the behaviour i wanted to improve was what they got a sticker for, and each of those behaviours was clearly defined and it would be no more than 3 behaviours at a time. So if they could earn a sticker every time they put their shoes on the first time they were asked, and after say 5 stickers they get to go to the toy shop and choose a toy - it didn't take long to see an improvement. Positive reinforcement and natural consequences works a lot better than punishment - "Susie because you didn't put your shoes on when asked, we now don't have time to go to the toy shop" works better than "Susie because you didn't do as you were told, I'm not taking you to the toy shop". And yes, praise all good behaviour even if you think it's something standard that shouldn't need praise.

The thing is, I've really told her off many times. It doesn't work.

I find warnings work with my 4 year old but not always, he can be unpredictable and very stubborn in the moment especially somewhere really fun, the consequences don’t always work either but I do try to stay consistent. I find setting expectations before you actually leave the house works quite well, setting out the plan for the day and say that you expect good listening/ polite behaviour etc else consequence My eldest never needed this and always listened to instructions so I really had to change my style with the second when I realised he wasn’t so easy going it can be exhausting!

I do all those things !

In the moment, she finds it hard to remember. It's like her emotions take over.

But when we discuss before and after what the right thing to do is/ was, she does know and can articulate it.

The warnings don't make a huge difference either.

In the moment, she finds it hard to remember. It's like her emotions take over.

Yep, that’s neuroscience. The amagydala kicks in and the rational brain literally switches off. If you did some reading on how a child’s brain works and the psychology of parenting your time together could be far more rewarding and calm.

Faber and Mazlish, Laurence Cohen, Janet Lansbury, Laura Markham - all easy reads.

I know that she can't regulate it yet, clearly.

But people in life ( like her teachers at nursery ) are expecting her to be able to regulate it already.

So why is that then ? Do they not understand that it takes time ?

But regulation of emotions is often an area where neurodiverse children struggle. And yes all children struggle to an extent but we realised after interacting with more of DD’s peers that it was more extreme for DD (this applies to many other areas too). Emotions are more intense & last longer. DD is very ‘in the moment’ so time warnings don’t help. Rewards only work if they are immediate.