My 4 year old is driving me insane

[upthewallie]

Maybe I'm expecting too much but she's just such hard work.

Every time we go to do something fun, she never wants to leave. She's so defiant.

Everything is ' NO '.

No matter what I try to do, she just doesn't do as she's told.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from her ?

For example today we went to soft play and when it was time to leave, I tried to distract immediately with ' hey susie let's go to the toy shop '. I genuinely was going to take her there and she was like ' NO ' so I said, we do need to go now though. So I went over to her with her shoes in my hand and she was sticking her tongue out at me and laughing at me going ' da da da da da ' and blowing at me. So I said, put your shoes on. She said no. Then I said ok I can see you're having trouble listening right now, so I'm going to help you. She was kicking me whilst I was trying to put her shoes on and sticking her tongue out.

Anyway I managed to get her out. I told her it wasn't acceptable and therefore we were not going to the toy shop because she didn't listen and she kicked me etc.

Later on I asked her about it and asked her why she didn't listen and kicked me when we needed to leave and she said she was just playing. I explained sometimes we can't just play and it's not nice to kick etc.

Anyway it's like this a lot when we need to leave places and I'm sick and tired of it.

Hair drying and brushing can be a challenge as well sometimes. It's very frustrating and nothing I do helps. Any advice ?

I was told by my neighbor that the terrible two’s last about four years, so hopefully you’re on the downstroke. I have two thoughts. One, your child is highly intelligent, but not channeling in the best way. So two, I think you should get professional help with learning how to be a firm but loving parent. I am not an expert at all but I think you cannot allow your daughter to see you as the weak one. She may verbally abuse you as she gets older, especially as a teen. I am a retired classroom teacher and I have heard kids call their parents idiots and while the parents were not idiots, the kids were definitely brighter and they knew it. Sorry , one more thought. Look for more advanced learning opportunities for your daughter. She may be bored out of her mind. Try many things to see what works. And, get her tested. You may learn that she is what we use to call gifted. Good luck to you!

I haven't RTFT I've just skim read your replies. I too have a 4 year old (he's asd and severe speech delay so i cant fully relate and im not jumping to SEN with your DD like so many on here do with every child that doesnt immediately fall into line and is beautifully behaved!) I do a countdown to leave/transition which I think I saw you also do. We take lego bricks with us so it's a visual countdown of 5 bricks, 4 bricks and so on until the last brick and then we leave, this might help rather than just a verbal request and then one alarm? As its bricks and not a clock you then have more control over how long the countdown takes as well so you can lengthen or shorten the time between bricks to suit her mood, response, situation and when you actually need to leave. My other suggestion would be not to say susie put your shoes on but say Susie are you going to put your shoes on by yourself or do you need mummy to help you? I can't remember the exact wording as it was explained to me but hopefully I can get the idea across ok! You basically give her two choices that result in the ending you want, in this case you want her to put her shoes on but you are offering her a choice of how to do it rather than the choice of her agreeing to shoes on or defiance and shoes off. It's something to do with closed questions/choices so she feels like she is in control but you get the result you want. Hopefully someone else can explain it better!

Sounds like ASD to me (I’m a asd parent)But if you’re saying it’s not then fair enough. I’ll get slated for saying this and obviously do not do this but if I acted like that at that age (I’m 42 so brought up in the 80s) my dad would have given me a right clip around the ear (actually it was a slipper over the backside).
Parents now need to stop with the namby pamby and give it to their kids straight. Say I’m the parent your the child you will do as I say no arguments.

Never heard of using an alarm tone before. That's a really good tip when they have no concept of time. I'll be using this with my 2 and 3 yo. Thanks 😊

Who's in charge? Who is the parent?

You get what you expect when you parent.

Expect good behaviour. Expect good manners. And expect your child to do what you say.

Most importantly introduce routines into every single day. Getting up time. Meal times. Play or tv time. Bath times. Story reading time. Bedtime. One expected activity should always follow another familiar expected activity.

If you want to treat your child - you say "DC you've been very good this week, as a treat we're going to X for our play time." "DC you've been very good, do you want to invite a friend over for tea or to play?"

Inject positive energy and curiousity into everything - from waking them up "Today's another lovely day, let's see what the weather's like"

Getting out the house. "It's windy outside, do you think the wind will blow us away?" "It's sunny outside, do you think we'll turn into baked potatoes?" "The car is making vroom, vroom noises, do you think it's trying to say something?"

Getting to bed. "I've got such a cool / lovely/ funny story to read tonight"

Going to bed. "It's a snuggle bunny night. Did you know all children who snuggle down like bunnies and go to sleep quickly, can dream they can fly?"

You have to engage your child. But above all, you set the expectations and boundaries.

Your child knows when you're not engaged and don't really have any confident parenting skills.

But you have to know how you want your child to behave. And then you have to be part of the journey to make that happen. You have to have routines. And always give lots of praise and recognition. And the times you are proud of your child's behaviour or engaged by them, will further build your confidence. Before you know it, your child will be 5 then 6 and loving having routines, recognition, praise.

My grandson (5) is like this at the moment, I hate it. I had to drag him kicking and screaming across a railway concourse the other day, by the time I got home I was shattered and discovered that he’d taken off his rucksack and left it on the bus. I’d put it back on for him only moments before we got off.

No advice, sorry, but sending you solidarity and a virtual hug.
My 4 y.o. is going through the "No" to everything phase too.
I find myself bribing with snacks or threatening no Peppa Pig / No TV 😅
Hang in there.
xx

I’ve replied a few times on this thread with ideas and I’ve got to say (as a Reception teacher and a mum to a child who was very tricky at 4) that there seems to be a lot going on in her day. Next time could you do the supermarket first? So if she’s well behaved there she’ll go to a play centre, if she isn’t then she won’t. Knowing how she behaves at the end of a visit it might be a good idea for her to ‘earn it’.

If she behaves at the supermarket and you go then I think the talking beforehand was great, only thing I’d change was giving her opportunity to be rude to you. As the alarm was about to go off I would have been within reach of her so if she ran off you could have held onto her. You gave her another chance to come and she ran off, she’d already had plenty of warnings it needed to be an immediate consequence. If she pleads you continue to carry through and get her out of there as quickly as you can, tell her you can’t trust that she won’t run off. After the play centre go straight home so she can unwind.

I would get out of this habit of going to the toy shop, getting a toy at the supermarket etc. You can reward good behaviour with a cuddle, praise, spending time reading together or playing.

I maintain what I said in earlier replies to you that she’s going to a lot of treat places but showing you she’s well behaved enough to go. If one of my children stuck out their tongue, ran off or kicked me after I’d treated them then they wouldn’t be going again for a while and I’d be telling them why they weren’t going.

Sorry, I haven’t read the whole thread, but I wonder whether you might find the book “Hunt, gather, parent” useful? Basically the author found that the more child centred activities they did, the worse her daughter’s behaviour was. Changing the approach to including her daughter in the everyday business of life (e.g cleaning, shopping, cooking) improved the situation. The book is about how traditional societies raise their children. Very interesting and I think worth reading.

I agree with those saying you are expecting too little.

and I get she feeds off your reaction. So set the expectations, then zero reaction. Explain once. Then nothing. She knows. No eye contact, just remove her. Same As at two.

as for hair brushing. There are really gentle no pull brushes. Otherwise one time at dance (age 6) me and a friend changed moms, and I never admitted it to mom, but she was gentler and I never complained again.

Hi,

it is insane lol! What worked well for us is to give a « 5 minutes » warning. Then they are allowed to « finish one thing » during this timeframe, whatever they choose to and then we leave.

good luck!

Yeah sounds like every child I know including my own

I don’t agree with physically removing her like some have suggested, that only works whilst they’re small. You can’t carry them out when they get older do you need to find something that works whilst they’re little. What kid wants to leave a place they’re having fun. It’s just normal.

We had 3 children with 3 very different characters. Kicking Mummy wasn't normal for any of them and neither was poking out tongues. That's not challenging behaviour. It's unbelievably rude.
Parenting has changed a lot, sometimes for the better, but with mine, it was 'I tell you once. I tell you twice. The third time you will have a smack.' Very rarely got to 3 as they knew it would happen. And before the world lambasts me for child abuse, it was a small and light smack on a clothed bottom, not a whack with a broom handle and it meant I wasn't exhausted with trying every method under the sun and was never reduced to tears by my children's behaviour.....Many of you posters have so much more patience than I had, but none of my children would ever have kicked me!

This thread is a really interesting read.

It's very clearly split between people who think children are just like this sometimes at this age and other who think it's not how 4 year olds should behave.
The ones who think 4 year olds shouldn't behave this way, seem to think it's 100 percent on the parents for allowing behaviour OR the child has SEN.

Whereas there are also very clear voices of others who have tried a lot of things and don't put it down to bad parenting.

I'm not sure where I stand. Could I be more consistent ? Probably. Do I do the right thing every time? No. Have I tired really hard since she was born to do the right things- absolutely.

Now, all the parents that find my DDs behaviour abhorrent blame it on my parenting. Whereas the ones whose children behave like my DD, seem to think it's just kids being kids and some kids being more spirited than others.

We have a circle of other 4 year olds we frequent. They're all different and the parents are all trying to do the right things. Some seem ' worse ' than my DD. Others seem more chilled and less spirited.

To the parents whose children never act up and blame bad behaviour on parents inconsistencies etc - did you never have a really bad day, where your two year old wanted something and you just gave it to them to shut them up ? Not even once, something small ? For example, they just really want to have some milk - but you know it's dinner time in an hour- but they're having a massive tantrum because they want milk- did you never just give it to them ?

@Snippysocks hahah love it.

When my DD was rude to me today I looked at another mum and I said to her- if we behaved like that with our parents would given is a smack..We had a giggle about it.

I just want to say about the kick though. It wasn't like she just kicked me. She was trying to not let me put on her shoes and in the process it was like a kick. She didn't just come up and kick me.

On the smacking front in general though, I just can't.

Could you try and think of some ways to encourage good behaviour. Going to soft play and leaving is hard for any child, so maybe doing lots of home based, less adrenaline based things. Do some craft with her and instead if you leading it, be led by her. If she becomes argumentative don't react and don't engage. Only re-engage when she then calms down. It's hard to get into the habit of this but it really works.

You could also have a jar of pieces of paper with mini treats on, so nothing that costs anything but is a real feel good thing for both of you. So a film afternoon or some activity she really wants to do. She gets to pick a piece out of the jar when she does well at something or behaves how you'd like.

Are you single parent? What about other family members? She is the same with them or behave in different way?

I think it's normal behaviour for 4 year olds. My daughter is that age and every other child that we know of a similar age has similar behaviours at least some of the time.
With DD it's not all the time, we have days when she's very cooperative and then days when everything is a struggle. She doesn't hit or kick but she does shout "no" a lot.
I'm surprised at some of the answers, 4 year olds don't really understand the concept of "rude", their social skills aren't that developed yet and they don't have a lot of impulse control. So they just react in the moment. All you can do is keep correcting, explaining and giving consequences where necessary.
Not wanting to leave soft play is also pretty standard. I always give 5 minute warnings, then if she still doesn't want to leave I say "ok bye, I'm leaving without you then" and go to walk out. She quickly follows me.

It sounds like you are giving her unrelated punishments (taking away TV, not giving her treats). Have you tried related/natural consequences. Children of that age have trouble linking unrelated consequences, it doesn't teach them anything and they don't have the brain development to link them. Using related consequences can help understand in the moment. There is plenty of good examples if you search online for the info.

Turn your back on her. Praise good behaviour but don't give her your time for any poor behaviour.

Do give time warnings and choices if you are leaving somewhere. "We are leaving in ten minutes" or when the clock is on the nine. Or "we can stay an extra ten minutes or go to the toyshop, which do you want to do?". Ask questions that can't be answered with No and offer two options.

If you've time and it's safe, say you don't want to be with them if they're going to be like that and turn your back and wait. Let her see you're upset. Don't bother with consequences other than it upsetting you.

She's testing you OP, to see if you'll back down. The stick to your hard boundaries and no nonsense tone and eventually she will get the message.

You sound like you are doing great. I think you just have to keep at it. I know that is not much help but you sound impressively switched on.

A lot of the stuff you’re saying to her is a common cause of ‘bad behavior’ and emotional disregulation.

Then we went to the supermarket and she wanted a toy, I asked her whether she thinks she was behaved well when we left the soft play and she said no. I said, no toy then. She was upset and complained.

Again, as I and many other PP have said, these random unrelated consequences and bribery don’t work. It’s completely illogical. Just Google ‘coercive parenting’ or maybe read a book? Have you ever read a parenting book or blog? This is all basic stuff. I shared some useful resources upthread.

told her it's unacceptable and that she can't have the her usual treat after dinner today.

Is that a food ‘treat’? Food is food, not a tool to be blackmailed with. Doing this sets up children with an unhealthy relationship with food for the rest of their life. See also labeling some foods as ‘treats’. Google ‘food neutrality’ or the ‘division of responsibility approach’. Kids eat in colour are great on Instagram.

Also - a child playing in a trolley, shock horror. What is the big deal? Supermarkets are boring. ‘I can’t let you do that with the trolley. I’m worried you will get hurt.’ ‘If you do it again I will have to lift you out. OK I’m going to lift you out now.’

how would you feel if mummy did that to you ? And she said ' really sad '. I then explained that I also feel really sad when she does that to me and she then said ' sorry '.

You are an adult with impulse control - these expectations you are placing on her are unfair.

Also, don’t ever tell a child they are making you sad - you are making them responsible for you feelings. Aka laying the foundations for a people-pleaser who prioritizes others’ feelings over their own. Google ‘over-responsibility’.

Anyway. At no point today did I lose my shit! So at least there's that.

This is key. Keep it up. Do you often lose your shit? You haven’t mentioned anything about your own mental health, triggers, rage etc. Parents are at the root of all, children co-regulate. They are not annoying, we let ourselves be annoyed.

My DS is like this, he’s 4 years old, He just loves acting out, I think it’s part of a growth phase. DH keeps shouting “behave yourself!” at him, as if he’s going to actually sit down & do that… I try to talk DS out of / into things, but it hard work.