My 4 year old is driving me insane

[upthewallie]

Maybe I'm expecting too much but she's just such hard work.

Every time we go to do something fun, she never wants to leave. She's so defiant.

Everything is ' NO '.

No matter what I try to do, she just doesn't do as she's told.

Maybe I'm expecting too much from her ?

For example today we went to soft play and when it was time to leave, I tried to distract immediately with ' hey susie let's go to the toy shop '. I genuinely was going to take her there and she was like ' NO ' so I said, we do need to go now though. So I went over to her with her shoes in my hand and she was sticking her tongue out at me and laughing at me going ' da da da da da ' and blowing at me. So I said, put your shoes on. She said no. Then I said ok I can see you're having trouble listening right now, so I'm going to help you. She was kicking me whilst I was trying to put her shoes on and sticking her tongue out.

Anyway I managed to get her out. I told her it wasn't acceptable and therefore we were not going to the toy shop because she didn't listen and she kicked me etc.

Later on I asked her about it and asked her why she didn't listen and kicked me when we needed to leave and she said she was just playing. I explained sometimes we can't just play and it's not nice to kick etc.

Anyway it's like this a lot when we need to leave places and I'm sick and tired of it.

Hair drying and brushing can be a challenge as well sometimes. It's very frustrating and nothing I do helps. Any advice ?

Oh how I wish we could just go up to adults like you and smack them.

I find explaining WHY we need to leave, or go to the shop, or put shoes on etc really helps. As well as at least a five or ten minute warning. I often give her a “choice” of how soon we leave as well “how many more minutes playing do you want before we got to the shops?”

Best of all is a combination of all of those. Eg:

”We haven’t got anything to eat for tea tonight, so I need to go to the shops to buy some food. We need to put our shoes on and leave very soon. How many more minutes playing would you like? Five or ten?”

”Soft play is closing soon, and we need to go home to see daddy and so I can have a rest. I’m very tired. You’ve got ten minutes more playing until you need to put your shoes on and get in the car. Let’s not make it a fuss like last time, please, because it makes me not want to bring you here again.”

And then lots of praise and pride and thank you for being such a good girl/boy.

im sure you’ve perhaps tried many of these things but I’ll post them in case there is something that may help-
give her a warning of when it’s time to leave, maybe take a timer so that she can see when her time will be up. A 4 year old has no concept of time so if you just say we will be here for an hour then that means nothing to her.
give her a schedule so that she knows what to expect, this could be a now and next, instead of the whole day in one go.
try to offer her a choice, so that she feels more in control. This could be would you like to put on your shoes or shall I put them on today.

tbh I think this is usual 4 year old defiance, but equally you are right to have the expectation for her to listen, follow instructions and especially not kick.

I've got a 4 year old boy. I think our kids would be good friends... he's so cheeky, hates leaving anywhere he's having fun and likes to think he's the boss. He is of course loving, kind and helpful but yeah, often annoying.
I found timers help when leaving something. I get him to start the timer on my phone and explain when it beeps we have to go. I give him choices in this case "you put your shoes on and we'll go to the toy shop. I put your shoes on and we go home"
Thankfully, it won't last forever.

Some.good advice here, but know you aren't alone. They don't call them the "fuck-you fours" for no reason.

I can totally relate to how you're feeling. Kids can go through really challenging phases that push us to our limits.

There's some great advice on this thread & like you said, you already do lots of what they've suggested and have tried different approaches.

I have a very strong-willed & defiant 7 yr old boy (tests my patience on a daily basis!), plus I have experience working with children with ADHD & ODD.

As you know, sometimes things work once & then never again, but nonetheless, consistency is so important.

Definitely keep up with the countdown to leaving time because setting expectations helps children to cope with things that they can't control. Maybe a small sand timer and/or little visual cards to count down may help?

Another suggestion would be to start the process of leaving 15 minutes before you actually need to. I suggest this because I know how wound up I've been many times when there's a time constraint & my child refuses to follow instructions. It won't stop the undesirable behaviour, but it will take some pressure off you & help you to feel less 'on the edge' because you're not feeling that sense of urgency that gets under our skin so easily. I'm writing this & thinking I should take my own advice re bedtime! 🤣

If there's any way you can help to involve her in the process / give her choices, the better. It makes sense that kids don't like being told what to do (understandably!), so having her turn over the sand timer and/or select the visual card that says 10 minutes left etc may help her to engage more with your expectations. Maybe even asking her to choose whether you leave in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. It might sound silly, but if you can create ways to enable her to feel empowered and involved in decision making, it may help her to feel less resistant. It's no quick-fix, but might help a bit?

When you're starting to get angry, take deep breaths & count to 10. It really can help. (I'm learning to do this!). She'll pick up on your emotions & even though we know at 4 years old she's developmentally too young to be manipulative, it does feel like it sometimes!

Stand your ground, firm but fair boundaries that are non-negotiable, & always wait until you're both calm before discussing any negative situation. Praise the smallest wins no matter how wound up you're feeling inside, & remember no-one is perfect. We're human & we're all doing our best.

Good luck!

I'm just going to come and smack the back of your leg JRM17.

for being rude.

My DN was like this. She'd throw herself on the floor kicking and screaming. She did it with her mum and gran all the time but I only ever saw it once. I told my mum and DS to just follow me.

I said in a calm but firm voice Susie, you can carry on lying on the floor kicking and screaming if you like but we're going now.
My mum DS and I then proceeded to walk out of the shop. She quickly jumped up and apologised. She never did it again. I don't know if this tactic would work obvs we wouldn't have left her and she could have called my bluff but she didn't.

Your DD will grow out of this phase, so until then, carry on doing what you're doing. Our children are more resilient the more we help them understand their behaviour and call them out for it which by the sounds of it is the way you parent. I'd add in heeps of praise where she doesn't fuss about stuff too.

I think it’s just kids, OP. It’s too much to expect perfect behaviour in all areas from kids at that age (or any age, really!) It sounds like you’re dealing with it fine, and she’ll in all likelihood grow out of it.

I think we’re all so neurotic about parenting these days (inc myself!) and expect ourselves to be “solving” every behavioral “problem”…. There’s actually likely a very necessary developmental reason she’s doing this (testing boundaries, exploring autonomy, enjoying provoking mummy so she can understand reactions… I dunno I’m not a child psychologist, but you get what I mean)… and you probably just need to keep on keeping on as you are, until you’re on to the next thing. She sounds like a lovely kid , and you obviously love being her mum.

And have some time to yourself. That’s important. Make sure you’re getting a break.

If you raise your children properly and with gentleness and respect, as well as firm
boundaries, then you don’t need to physically harm them. Which also psychologically harms them. And it also makes parenting joyless and horrible.

But you do sound rather like a joyless and horrible person.

I have fairly often picked up and physically moved my child when they are defiant but in danger, or defiant but still need to leave somewhere/stop something. But it is always with gentleness and respect and understanding of how that must feels for them. I wouldn’t hit or strike them any more than I would any other human being.

also, young children have no concept of time, and if you don’t forgive and make up after a tantrum or defiant moment, and immediately reward the good behaviour when they do as they’re told, then they will feel unanchored and be completely confused about what to do. And scared of not understanding. So punishing a toddler for a week is an awful thing to do, and counterproductive.

Poor parenting from you all round. But sounds like that might have been the way you were brought up so seems normal for you. In which case I’m sorry for your experience.

Never did this with my older and neither do it do it with my 3 toddlers bribe them to leave a place. Parks,leisure centres,soft play are a treat to be enjoyed and to leave when mummy says so with no hassle. So when I say cmon time to get ready and go off we go. No tantrums,stomps etc. If I allowed tantrums each trip out would be a nightmare plus child learns to get own way all the time. We went to a park a few days ago and my 3 under 3 stood amazed watching a woman literally drag a screaming 4 year old from the park kicking and yelling at her because they wouldn't leave. If you teach very quickly and very young that time to go is when there told them each trip is fun

I wasn't bribing in this instance- I immediately suggested - let's go to the toy shop after we leave here. We had already discussed it earlier.

I get what you're saying though.

But when you say ' if you allowed tantrums ' how can you disallow a tantrum ? It kind of just happens ? No one likes tantrums and no one ' allows ' them. It's just a thing that can happen and there are ways to deal with it. But I'm curious how you ' don't allow ' tantrums ? Can you elaborate ?

DC really struggled/s with transitions and at 4 it started to appear that it was a bit different from some of their peers. Things that have helped us are describing the day up front with lots of signalling as to what part of the day we are in e.g. we are going to have breakfast, then play and then go to the shops, right now we are having breakfast. Also using 5 minute warnings, timers on our phone etc which to me sounded stressful but seems to work for them.

It's hard work though so you have my empathy OP. I have had to carry the planking child out horizontally from soft play whilst another parent pointed at DC saying to her children 'look at that naughty child, you'd never behave like that because you are so good'. Grrrr.

Despite all that I have never ever thought the answer was giving them a good smack. Violence against a child is the weakest of weak parenting imho.

@Wonderfulstuff

It's hard work though so you have my empathy OP. I have had to carry the planking child out horizontally from soft play whilst another parent pointed at DC saying to her children 'look at that naughty child, you'd never behave like that because you are so good'. Grrrr.

Karma will get them one day for saying that. No child is perfect forever. Can't wait until you have a chilled teen and they have a nightmare teen.

My parents say I was an absolute angel as a toddler and young child, but I was a very rebellious teen and really struggled to work out what to do with my life in my 20s etc. it worked out in the end but I was an absolute angel as a child and toddler, everyone says so.

My youngest is nine now and has always been a pretty well behaved child but leaving places (especially play dates) used to be an absolute nightmare no matter how much notice I'd given her that we would leave in ten mins etc. it was so bad just after she turned five (and she wouldn't leave a play date even though her disabled brother needed to leave and I was getting super super stressed) and in anger I said there would be no more play dates at anyone's house for a year because I couldn't deal with her behaviour anymore. The next week covid hit so it was pretty easy to follow through! I still wonder how long I'd have held out if that hadn't happened but tbh her behaviour was so bad at leaving time I might well have gone the whole year. And she was such a good girl otherwise! Tbh she can still be a bit of a pain about this - if her BFF is over at our house then they hide when it's time for the friend to go home - but nothing to what it was and she's otherwise wonderful. Sorry to ramble - just sending solidarity and to say that this phase will end!

Can second the starting the process earlier!

I have a younger child who is so wilful it’s ridiculous. If she has suggested to do something, then she will do it. As soon as she’s told what to do, even if you know she wants to, it’s a no!

i walk to pick up my son from school with her and she rides her bike which she loves. I now leave 30 mins for a 10 min walk, because it’s the afternoon and if she has a meltdown, we end up being late. Since I started leaving 30 mins, she hasn’t had any meltdowns, and we end up at school 20 mins early… the end result is the same with less tears and less tantrums.

My son never did any of this, apart from on rare occasions…!

Be firm and a parent you don't need to be her friend I these situations. She's obviously learned the behavior somewhere and pussy footing around it isn't going to help.
You are the parent what you say goes.at 4 you could have picked her up and removed her rather then the gentle I'm going to help you. She doesn't need help she needs to understand discipline and rules.

I don’t think you can randomly throw out ‘toy shop’ as a lure to get her out of somewhere she wants to be, and then almost immediately withdraw it and hope it counts as a ‘consequence’. It doesn’t.

She didn’t have a clue that it could happen and so didn’t give a shit when it didn’t. Do you do that a lot? Throw out ‘treats’ as ways to make her behave, and then withdraw them when she doesn’t?

She doesn’t respect you. She doesn’t believe you. It takes a lot of consistent groundwork to get kids to listen to you and respect you. You can’t give in even once, they remember. Give them clear rules and boundaries ahead of time, explain what will happen if she fails to adhere to them, and follow it through.

Do you give any warning? Kids this age struggle with transitions and I find if you give very clear information that what they are doing right now is coming to an end before it actually does then they handle it a lot better. For example: "we're going to leave in 10 minutes and then go to the toy shop", then a bit later: "couple more minutes, last time on the slide", and THEN you tell them it's time to go and remind them why (fun things, toy shop etc).

Not being funny, but if your kids don't tantrum when you leave a place, that's just their inate personality and you've not worked magic 🤣 if your kids have never done this then you have no idea and you shouldn't try to judge. Why do parents do this? Well MY kid has never done a,b,c so it must be because I do x,y,z or I just don't ALLOW them to 🙄 do you really think parents of kids who tantrum haven't tried to teach their kid that it's time to go when they say it is? 🤦🏼‍♀️

She has so many treats and experiences and gets so many things she wants indeed. I spoil her like crazy !

Oh. Nevermind. It’s this. She doesn’t value anything and she doesn’t respect you because you pile gifts and treats on her, however she acts.

4 year olds can be hard work! We’ve just had a baby who is now 10 weeks and our 4 year old can really push it sometimes.

We tend to use ‘if… then…’ with our 4 year old boy. So I would have given a time warning first for 5 minutes. Then when time was up I would have said ‘5 minutes is up, it’s time to go now’

If he said no, or refused to put his shoes on, I would have then said ‘IF you put your shoes on THEN you can have rhymes in the car’ or ‘IF you chose not to put your shoes on THEN there will be no rhymes in the car today’

We find that using this language consistently makes it really clear what we’re expecting from him and what the reward or consequence will be.

But going to the toy shop to bribe her in the first place shouldn't have been on the table.

You can be an authoritative parent without being a cruel dictator. Kids need boundaries. And at this age if you pick a battle you need to win it to make sure they understand they can whinge or whine or kick their way into what they want. You're the parent here, you're in charge.

It is also just a phase.

Whenever I see a "naughty" child be taken home I always think good on the parents for enforcing a boundary and not being scared of dealing with tantrums.

My dc are a lot older now but How to talk so kids will listen is a fabulous book and helped me so much when they were this age. The thing I found transformative was accepting that tantrums happen and a parent shouldn't expect to prevent or stop them entirely - it's natural for a child with very little control over their life and limited ability to think ahead/be logical/control their emotions to get upset when something happens they don't like, such as leaving somewhere where they are having fun.

As well as the playful ideas listed above, offering choices, giving a countdown etc, I would recommend 'granting their wishes in fantasy,' which is like the validation idea someone mentioned above. I remember the first time I used this with my ds I was amazed that it worked: 'Oh, so you'd like to stay in soft-play all forever? Wow - where would you sleep though? In the ball-pit? But what if someone jumped on you in the night?' etc etc. Often done while putting his shoes on etc. It really did work most of the time and made me feel so much better as I wasn't getting into conflict with him or feeling bad because he didn't want what I wanted.

Some of the talk about consequences (not that I disagree entirely and my dc did get natural consequences where relevant) makes me a bit sad. 4 is very young and I do think we sometimes expect too much and forget what it must be like at that age having no control over anything and being punished/having consequences having been set up to fail by parents who haven't thought things through properly.

My dc are teens now and have their moments but have never been in trouble at school and I've always been complimented on their behaviour by friends' parents etc. They can be cheeky sods to me but we mainly have a great relationship which I don't think would be better had I been stricter when they were younger.