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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to stop DD having holidays?

246 replies

PomPomDahlia27 · 10/04/2024 10:21

DH and I stopped family holidays 12 years ago as it was too hard because both DD1 and DD2 have SEN. Since then DH and DD2 have gone on mini breaks around the UK 2 or 3 times a year while I stay at home with DD1. Everyone has been happy with this arrangement.

Now DD2 is a young adult this isn’t working so well because she feels DH doesn’t meet her needs properly in terms of reassurance and controlling her anxiety. He just about covers her physical needs although they frequently bicker because he doesn’t do things the way she likes.

They’ve just come home early from a week away because DD was so stressed and DH couldn’t calm her down.

Looking ahead, what do I do?

DD does have paid carers some of the time but DH doesn’t want to go away on holiday with a carer in tow, and also we would have to pay for their room and meals.

The obvious answer is for me to go with them purely to be the mediator and counsellor etc so we will have the extra the cost plus I don’t actually want to go at all tbh. I don’t like going away, I hate the activities they enjoy so literally I will spend my time following them around just being her carer.

But it seems that if I don’t agree then DD won’t have anymore holidays as it’s just not working with DH anymore.

AIBU to say I won’t go?

OP posts:
Original poster
PomPomDahlia27 · 10/04/2024 15:59

4timesthefun · 10/04/2024 14:27

It very much sounds like the OP’s DD is neurodiverse - the extent of the difficulties and challenges wave a tonne of flags for ASD rather than ‘just anxiety’. In that case, there is a reasonable possibility that the DH is too, and changing his behaviour may not be as straight forward or easy either. It sounds extremely unlikely with the severity of emotional/social/behavioural needs of the girls that they have 2 neurotypical parents. I think I’d be reducing the amount of holidays, and either your DD accepts her father’s limitations and learns to regulate, or you go on holidays somewhere YOU want to go, with a carer, so you still get that respite. Obviously that will financially limit the frequency, which may not be a bad thing.

While I understand it’s not fair the emphasis is on DD to change, rather than her parent, it’s probably the reality of the situation. Not only because SHE is the one wanting the holidays (he doesn’t sound that bothered), but he doesn’t sound like he is willing or able to change. She has to make the decision about her holidays with that information in mind.

This reply has hit me like a tonne of bricks. DD1 has ASD but I've never really thought about if for DD2 or myself or DH.

DD1 has certainly had a tough time over the years, very much overlooked at times due to the complexity of DD2's needs. For the last few years things have levelled out but there is a definite resentment there and frankly DD1 just hates having DD2 at home.

DH just doesn't get what it means to have anxiety despite the fact that he himself was on meds years ago for depression. Something at work triggered a breakdown and the meds eventually helped lift him out, but to him there was a clear issue that led to a breakdown. He's very black and white. He just cannot understand how DD is permanently on the edge of upset.

He probably makes 5-10 comments per day that upset her, and you never know how badly she is going to react. It drives me mad because I know exactly what he has said to trigger her but he can't see it. OTOH they are often things that are superficially innocuous, but he should know better shouldn't he? Or maybe he should be allowed to make stupid jokes in his own house. I do t know anymore. I bite my tongue hue with DD because I don't want a row.

Just trying to think of other recent examples so you can see the fine line of who is being silly/sensitive:

Bedtime - I say come on DD let's get going for bed, she says hang on give me 5 minutes, DH says ugh I'm too old to stay up after midnight, so I'll start my stopwatch. DD is upset because she says she feels like he means she is a burden.

DH says shall we watch x tonight, DD says no I want to go on my phone. DH says ok but there's lots of stuff recorded and you never get round to watching it so shall we just watch without you? DD gets upset that he is "getting at her"

DD has booked tickets to a show which she mentioned to DH a couple of months ago without specifying date or time. It clashed with something else he was doing. When she said oh it's all booked he said oooh when for, I'm a busy man, I'll have to see if I can find time (joking) then he had to say oh good I'll move my other thing, I wish you'd checked first. She gets angry saying it's his fault for not listening and now he's making her feel bad for doing something nice.

OP posts:
alloalloallo · 10/04/2024 16:00

My daughter is autistic and has quite severe anxiety, and having been in your shoes, honestly, it’s enabling her.

Has she ever had any CBT or therapy? Learning to build some coping mechanisms and strategies? Has anyone suggested medication or anything like that? My DD is now on anxiety meds and she’s had a couple of courses of CBT (the first one didn’t click with her) and whilst she still struggles, she has learned some coping mechanisms which have helped enormously.

I used to tip toe around DD and it was no way for any of us to live, and wasn’t helping her in the slightest. I’m now a bit more tough love about these things.

Always having to think twice before you opened your mouth, always having to do certain things in a certain way, etc, etc was exhausting and expecting you, or your DH or other DD to do this isn’t fair on anyone.

QueenBakingBee · 10/04/2024 16:04

Bluetrews25 · 10/04/2024 15:38

She needs to learn to ride the wave of her anxiety. Anxiety is an emotion that she created in her head, just like any other emotion or feeling. Remember that feelings aren't facts, and that the anxiety will reduce in time, even faster if she can distract herself somehow by practicing a breathing technique or a relaxation technique.

Constantly giving reassurance obviously does not work to reduce anxiety. If it did, you would only have to do it once. The best way to help in this scenario is to refuse to give the reassurance but to remind and support with the distraction techniques instead. 'No, stop it, we're not doing this, do your XYZ technique' (Such as count backwards from 100 in sevens; rule of 333 for anxiety; breathing exercises; mindfulness; relaxation) She will get better at distracting herself out of anxiety the more she does it, and the trick is to start practicing these techniques when NOT feeling anxious, so that you are good at them when you DO feel anxious and need them to help you.

HTH

What is the long term plan for when neither of you can provide the supporting role? Now is a good time to start transitioning towards that, surely?

This is spot on advice! My daughter suffers from anxiety and her counselling really did help her put into place techniques she now uses. Yes she still gets anxious on occasion (much less than she had previously!) and together we do what is suggested above - it takes practise, work and determination.

I think it will take time for this to settle - its for all of you to 'unlearn' these patterns that you fall into.

Also, what is the plan she has for after uni? If she plans to enter the world of work, her employer (even those who are incredible with the support they offer) will not be able to give this level of reassurance. She needs to build her resilience to be able to make it. With this in mind, may I suggest her consider volunteering or other work-based experience - this will broaden her world as well as give her the opportunity to not rely so much on her family for her sense of self (including seeing what she is truly capable of).

As her mum you are trying your best, I promise you you are not a bad mum for wanting to reassure and sooth her. But the way of you and DH are doing it, isn't going to help her in the long run.

BoohooWoohoo · 10/04/2024 16:12

You say that your h can’t see why his words have triggered dd2. Do you think that he possible has ND too? (ND is often genetic)
In that case, expecting him to act like you (ie neurotypically) is unreasonable.
The things he say would be interpreted as bad dad jokes to most people. Do you think she could anticipate some of his reactions eg 5 more mins before bed and learn to retort with a joke of her own? Eg I’m surprised that to see you awake past 9pm
Whats the solution to the programmes building up on the harddrive ? If it’s a programme that she’s not particularly into, it’s a good opportunity to get out of sitting down to watch it.

cestlavielife · 10/04/2024 16:13

PomPomDahlia27 · 10/04/2024 11:53

They do lots of things including orienteering, forest walks, treasure hunts, city tours and pub crawls, escape rooms. Also theatre, comedy shows, zoos, wildlife parks.

They were thinking of going to the Edinburgh Fringe this year which they would both love so much but I think it will be a disaster, but I'd hate for her to miss out.

She can do all those on an organised trip for young adults if going with dad doesn't work for them.
She is adult now she does not need to go with dad if it s not working for either of them .
Increase her independence.

AnnaMagnani · 10/04/2024 16:13

Nothing on the list of examples of your DH's behaviour is that bad though is it?

These are the sort of issues that happen as children turn into adults, their parents start to annoy them and it's time to leave home.

Your DH has a point, it's his home and he shouldn't be walking on eggshells. Instead of adjusting what every one around her says, your DD would be better thinking about if her reactions are correct and proportionate.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 10/04/2024 16:16

I would skip the holidays for a while. It doesn't sound like your husband is doing anything wrong, just that your daughter has got to the age where nothing he can do is right. The answer is probably not to spend more time together, but to work towards her being more independent and going on holidays without either parent.

Sirzy · 10/04/2024 16:17

PomPomDahlia27 · 10/04/2024 15:59

This reply has hit me like a tonne of bricks. DD1 has ASD but I've never really thought about if for DD2 or myself or DH.

DD1 has certainly had a tough time over the years, very much overlooked at times due to the complexity of DD2's needs. For the last few years things have levelled out but there is a definite resentment there and frankly DD1 just hates having DD2 at home.

DH just doesn't get what it means to have anxiety despite the fact that he himself was on meds years ago for depression. Something at work triggered a breakdown and the meds eventually helped lift him out, but to him there was a clear issue that led to a breakdown. He's very black and white. He just cannot understand how DD is permanently on the edge of upset.

He probably makes 5-10 comments per day that upset her, and you never know how badly she is going to react. It drives me mad because I know exactly what he has said to trigger her but he can't see it. OTOH they are often things that are superficially innocuous, but he should know better shouldn't he? Or maybe he should be allowed to make stupid jokes in his own house. I do t know anymore. I bite my tongue hue with DD because I don't want a row.

Just trying to think of other recent examples so you can see the fine line of who is being silly/sensitive:

Bedtime - I say come on DD let's get going for bed, she says hang on give me 5 minutes, DH says ugh I'm too old to stay up after midnight, so I'll start my stopwatch. DD is upset because she says she feels like he means she is a burden.

DH says shall we watch x tonight, DD says no I want to go on my phone. DH says ok but there's lots of stuff recorded and you never get round to watching it so shall we just watch without you? DD gets upset that he is "getting at her"

DD has booked tickets to a show which she mentioned to DH a couple of months ago without specifying date or time. It clashed with something else he was doing. When she said oh it's all booked he said oooh when for, I'm a busy man, I'll have to see if I can find time (joking) then he had to say oh good I'll move my other thing, I wish you'd checked first. She gets angry saying it's his fault for not listening and now he's making her feel bad for doing something nice.

Show quote history

If she needs help with bed then she needs to accept that unfortunately getting into bed and to the stage she doesn’t need help will have to be to a degree at a time that fits those helping her. She can’t expect you to stay up until she feels like going to bed.

if things are recorded she can watch at another time if she doesn’t want to watch with DH.

that’s a lesson to her to check before booking, thankfully he could go!

CheeryPye · 10/04/2024 16:17

PomPomDahlia27 · 10/04/2024 12:02

DD1 doesn't need as much care and can be left alone for a few days. She isn't as demanding as long as she's left in peace at home.

DD doesn't really have specific triggers that I can explain but I know that DH's personality is really difficult for her to manage. So for example, he will book an outing and they say something like That's all booked, let's hope it doesn't rain. Or they set off in the car and he will say Should only take an hour unless that warning light comes back on the car ha ha.

He's a chump. Makes stupid comments and jokes all the time and then when she reacts and says something like oh no, do you think it will be closed if it's too wet, he'll just shut her down and say FGS don't worry, we'll sort it out when we get there.

She overreacts to everything and he doesn't do anything to stop himself provoking her because he thinks she's being ridiculous.

It sounds like hes being pretty patient but maybe he's right? Maybe he finds it draining too? She does sound hard work. Even someone without special needs would be draining reacting to every tiny little thing like that. It's Impossible to say anything around some people without some sort of non existent drama and it does seem a little unfair to place that just at your DHs feet when it's not him that is the drama llama. Maybe he's tired of forever tiptoeing around her having to second guess every single thing he says and being scared to say anything for fear she might 'react'? Sometimes it's unbearably suffocating not being able to say anything without one particular person always over reacting to every slightest thing. He sounds like a saint.

BreatheAndFocus · 10/04/2024 16:20

You’re pandering to her and letting everyone else’s lives be impacted by her anxiety. It’s ridiculous your DH can’t make mild jokes or innocuous comments without her kicking off. This is her problem not anyone else’s. I feel really sorry for your DD1.

Your DD needs to start taking responsibility for her reactions and try to figure out a way to reduce the extremeness of them. She’s going to get a rude awakening when she goes out into the world and finds it doesn’t revolve around her. I appreciate anxiety isn’t something you can suddenly switch off in a second or two, but it’s definitely something you can work towards reducing and developing coping strategies, where you recognise it for what it is and deal with it better.

I’d stop DD’s holidays for a while; stop pandering to her; and support her in dealing with her anxiety rather than enabling it.

Doingmybest12 · 10/04/2024 16:21

I would say if they are upsetting each other then they shouldn't go on holiday together. If they as two adults can't work together to sort it out to make the holiday work it's not for you to step in unless you'd like to. Doesn't sound like you'd like to and you already do a lot. They've got responsibility here.

DoreenonTill8 · 10/04/2024 16:22

Sirzy · 10/04/2024 16:17

If she needs help with bed then she needs to accept that unfortunately getting into bed and to the stage she doesn’t need help will have to be to a degree at a time that fits those helping her. She can’t expect you to stay up until she feels like going to bed.

if things are recorded she can watch at another time if she doesn’t want to watch with DH.

that’s a lesson to her to check before booking, thankfully he could go!

Show quote history

Absolutely this, it sounds like dd2 is controlling the house. You can't watch what you want to on TV till she does, she wants taken to something she's booked tickets for, but dh wasn't actually asked day/time to take her, and it's still his fault? It sounds like you Absolutely agree with dd2 that she is the priority and all demands must be met, this isn't fair on anyone and again poor dd1 having her life controlled so much by someone who doesn't even live there.

spriots · 10/04/2024 16:22

PomPomDahlia27 · 10/04/2024 15:59

This reply has hit me like a tonne of bricks. DD1 has ASD but I've never really thought about if for DD2 or myself or DH.

DD1 has certainly had a tough time over the years, very much overlooked at times due to the complexity of DD2's needs. For the last few years things have levelled out but there is a definite resentment there and frankly DD1 just hates having DD2 at home.

DH just doesn't get what it means to have anxiety despite the fact that he himself was on meds years ago for depression. Something at work triggered a breakdown and the meds eventually helped lift him out, but to him there was a clear issue that led to a breakdown. He's very black and white. He just cannot understand how DD is permanently on the edge of upset.

He probably makes 5-10 comments per day that upset her, and you never know how badly she is going to react. It drives me mad because I know exactly what he has said to trigger her but he can't see it. OTOH they are often things that are superficially innocuous, but he should know better shouldn't he? Or maybe he should be allowed to make stupid jokes in his own house. I do t know anymore. I bite my tongue hue with DD because I don't want a row.

Just trying to think of other recent examples so you can see the fine line of who is being silly/sensitive:

Bedtime - I say come on DD let's get going for bed, she says hang on give me 5 minutes, DH says ugh I'm too old to stay up after midnight, so I'll start my stopwatch. DD is upset because she says she feels like he means she is a burden.

DH says shall we watch x tonight, DD says no I want to go on my phone. DH says ok but there's lots of stuff recorded and you never get round to watching it so shall we just watch without you? DD gets upset that he is "getting at her"

DD has booked tickets to a show which she mentioned to DH a couple of months ago without specifying date or time. It clashed with something else he was doing. When she said oh it's all booked he said oooh when for, I'm a busy man, I'll have to see if I can find time (joking) then he had to say oh good I'll move my other thing, I wish you'd checked first. She gets angry saying it's his fault for not listening and now he's making her feel bad for doing something nice.

Show quote history

Maybe this is just me but all of these seem to be examples of your DH establishing boundaries without being rude and your DD being a bit of a princess.

shenandoahvalley · 10/04/2024 16:23

DH says shall we watch x tonight, DD says no I want to go on my phone. DH says ok but there's lots of stuff recorded and you never get round to watching it so shall we just watch without you? DD gets upset that he is "getting at her"

DD has booked tickets to a show which she mentioned to DH a couple of months ago without specifying date or time. It clashed with something else he was doing. When she said oh it's all booked he said oooh when for, I'm a busy man, I'll have to see if I can find time (joking) then he had to say oh good I'll move my other thing, I wish you'd checked first. She gets angry saying it's his fault for not listening and now he's making her feel bad for doing something nice.

Oh. My. Word. How do you live like this?? This is impossible! And not what I commonly see as anxiety. This is something else entirely.

Bluetrews25 · 10/04/2024 16:25

The examples you gave - none of them, just NONE of them are a DH problem.

Cheesyfootballs01 · 10/04/2024 16:26

shenandoahvalley · 10/04/2024 16:23

DH says shall we watch x tonight, DD says no I want to go on my phone. DH says ok but there's lots of stuff recorded and you never get round to watching it so shall we just watch without you? DD gets upset that he is "getting at her"

DD has booked tickets to a show which she mentioned to DH a couple of months ago without specifying date or time. It clashed with something else he was doing. When she said oh it's all booked he said oooh when for, I'm a busy man, I'll have to see if I can find time (joking) then he had to say oh good I'll move my other thing, I wish you'd checked first. She gets angry saying it's his fault for not listening and now he's making her feel bad for doing something nice.

Oh. My. Word. How do you live like this?? This is impossible! And not what I commonly see as anxiety. This is something else entirely.

The husband sounds like a saint.

Your poor other daughter.

Maglian · 10/04/2024 16:27

OP in the 3 examples you gave above, I'm not sure about the first one. DD is an adult who is more reliant on her parents than most would be at her age. That is hard on everyone.

With the other two I would say DD was being unreasonably demanding. We have the same conversation about TV watching. People normally get a few nights of delaying and then we discuss whether we can watch it in the next 24h together, or the rest watch it without them. We say similar to your DH often, but couched very carefully I suppose. We might give some ground (eg child getting to stay up later - they're younger) to get it in.

On the show, IMO of course she should have checked for people's availability before she booked it. My husband and I check in with each other before booking anything as a courtesy, unless it's a surprise gift that's months away. It is not how every family works but for us it's just basic respect for other people's time and commitments. DH has a thing he does on Wednesdays. He always checks I'm happy for him to go, even after years of me never saying no. Because I am more important than his thing.

If you don't mind me saying, I wonder if you have lost yourself a bit in the tidal wave of trying to meet both of their needs.

Doingmybest12 · 10/04/2024 16:28

Sounds like in an effort to promote your daughters independence she's not been expected to work around other people and their needs too. You've kept her in the child role.

Ponoka7 · 10/04/2024 16:28

DoreenonTill8 · 10/04/2024 14:24

How can he 'educate himself' to her genuine triggers if him saying 'hope it doesn't rain' ends up being a terrible thing to say that she reports back to the OP? It seems that doing anything at all that is not suggested or approved by the dd2 is wrong and triggering which op herself has said, and is why everyone and dd1 (who it seems is being ridden roughshod over) has to acquiesce and walk on eggshells or she kicks off?

Show quote history

It's really easy. Which us why it's on anyone's care plan who is in residential. You just don't verbalise the worst case scenario or catastrophise. If he can't manage that then she is best with someone who can meet all her needs. It's a shame that he is letting her down.

Ohhbaby · 10/04/2024 16:30

alloalloallo · 10/04/2024 16:00

My daughter is autistic and has quite severe anxiety, and having been in your shoes, honestly, it’s enabling her.

Has she ever had any CBT or therapy? Learning to build some coping mechanisms and strategies? Has anyone suggested medication or anything like that? My DD is now on anxiety meds and she’s had a couple of courses of CBT (the first one didn’t click with her) and whilst she still struggles, she has learned some coping mechanisms which have helped enormously.

I used to tip toe around DD and it was no way for any of us to live, and wasn’t helping her in the slightest. I’m now a bit more tough love about these things.

Always having to think twice before you opened your mouth, always having to do certain things in a certain way, etc, etc was exhausting and expecting you, or your DH or other DD to do this isn’t fair on anyone.

Fully agree, it is not helping her by tiptoeing around.
It's teaching her 'i have a problem, everyone should accommodate me' when in reality she should be learning strategies to cope with the anxiety she experiences. That's is helping her, that's helping her have the fullest life she can have. Currently your keeping her at the level she's at if it makes sense.

Commonsense22 · 10/04/2024 16:33

OP: it sounds like you do absolutely loads for your daughters and that is amazing. You have a difficult situation which must be physically and emotionally exhausting.

You say the times your husband and dd2 go on holiday are like little breaks for you. Don't give those up.

A lot of people have mentioned good points about promoting your daughter's independence and ensuring dd1's needs are covered. But I just wanted to remind you you're already doing an amazing job in a tough situation.

Original poster
PomPomDahlia27 · 10/04/2024 16:34

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts, it's so helpful to get different perspective.
To try and address some of the comments and questions:

DH is not a saint, but I can see that he does bite his tongue a lot and put up with a lot. He really loves the holidays with her despite it being hard work doing the caring and I'm sad for him that he gets so much grief from her.

I am totally running in empty. Re the activities - I don't want to do any of them, I don't want to so anything. I want to stay at home in my garden with the dogs and be left in peace. The last 20+ years have finished me off and there's no end in sight

DH and I spend very little time together, haven't at all since the girls were born, and are trying to address that but DD2's needs come first in all our plans

DD1 is ok. We spend a lot of quality time together and she is not overlooked anymore.

I'm definitely going to think more about my approach to DD2's anxiety so I move away from just keeping the peace as that's not really helping long term.

OP posts:
hattie43 · 10/04/2024 16:34

I wish you wouldn't denigrate your OH as he seems to be very good taking her on holiday at all . Most people wouldn't entertain such a difficult time .
Your daughter is of an age where she needs to be more self reliant .

DoreenonTill8 · 10/04/2024 16:35

Ponoka7 · 10/04/2024 16:28

It's really easy. Which us why it's on anyone's care plan who is in residential. You just don't verbalise the worst case scenario or catastrophise. If he can't manage that then she is best with someone who can meet all her needs. It's a shame that he is letting her down.

Show quote history

Why is commenting re the weather the worst case scenario or catastrophising?

How do you make a care plan that would be 'we don't know what or when saying something may upset her, it constantly changes' would you really say, 'we just need to do EVERYTHING EXACTLY as she wants no matter what, if she still gets upset, its still your fault, you're always wrong.'?

LIZS · 10/04/2024 16:35

Doingmybest12 · 10/04/2024 16:28

Sounds like in an effort to promote your daughters independence she's not been expected to work around other people and their needs too. You've kept her in the child role.

Her behaviour is definitely coming across as immature. Does she have friends at uni?

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