To exclude one child from family holiday

[Mama1209]

I have a strained relationship with my eldest daughter. She basically lives with her grandparents. I try my hardest to make her feel loved, wanted & included. We have booked a summer holiday abroad this year. 6 of us in total so it’s not cheap. We have just been on a weekend break and she was a nightmare! Shouting and swearing calling me names in public etc. I don’t get it because she was really looking forward to it. It’s as soon as she doesn’t get her own way she kicks off. Now me and my husband will work hard all year to pay for this summer holiday and I don’t want her to ruin it for us and the other kids! AIBU to cancel her off? I feel like she would never forgive me and it would ruin any chance of building a stronger relationship so I’m torn!

Try asking her? Is she seeing that she is included only in a trip organised for the younger ones. Have you discussed/investigated what is there for older teenagers (not just a teen club for 10-14s)
It may have been that she felt compelled to come/felt she was owed a holiday, but did not feel that the holiday was about her, but all about your younger children? It is tempting as parents of little ones to organise holiday activities around them.

Either way, tell her that her joining you is conditional on not repeating her recent behaviour.

Does not seem as if you would be using her as a babysitter (this has been the subject of many a conversation here on MumsNet).
But if she is acting up, then perhaps her grandparents are looking forward to a break from her too?
Can you cancel her out and have money then for her to do something else? Is there any college trip that she could join instead? (My DD went to France and Spain with the school, in her 6th form years, and then in her post-A level Summer, went off to Rome with her classmates).

Is there an opportunity to include a friend/cousin more her own age, so they can do their thing together?

Yes definitely unfair on them. Especially her grandmother who is still traumatised from loosing her son. I can’t imagine what that’s like god bless her and she’s a lovely woman.

Never asked her to babysit really and certainly wouldn’t on HER holiday. We have discussed plans. She has her own room. I’ve told her I won’t be waiting for her getting ready etc for food as she takes ages. It’s all inclusive so she can do as she pleases and we can do a day trip/ spa just us 2.

I know right?!

I have tried the GP about 15 times and CHALMS also help from the school and now her college as well as private counselling etc but so far no diagnosis or anything just “breathing exercises” and talking therapies which she herself says don’t work and aren’t going to bring her dad back

Which is wonderful but that doesn't mean she's emerged unscathed or without trauma.

Obviously! I also lost my dad when I was age 15 so I know exactly what it feels like which is why I’ve tried my best to limit that for her as much as I can but obviously nothing anyone can do or say will bring him back I’m not a magician

Have a read up on ACE's (adverse childhood events) and the PACE (playfulness, acceptance, curiosity, empathy) approach to managing behaviour. Sounds like just the approach your daughter needs and probably would have benefitted from through her earlier years too

He died after prison though. And he went to prison for what again?

She is clearly significantly harmed and hasn’t had the needed support.

Losing your dad at 15 is not remotely comparable.

Holiday sounds lovely Op and sounds as if it could work for all different ages (& temperaments 😊). We did similar on our first break away after Covid and it worked really well, took the pressure off, very relaxed.

Maybe encourage a wee part time job, if she doesn't already have one & wants money. We gave a nudge in the right direction as to places to apply, but they were surprisingly enthusiastic. It was the independence he craved and it, along with learning to drive, has been fantastic.

I know your daughter has had to deal with a lot, I know behaviour has not been ideal, but she obviously has spark and strong will... When she clicks that she can put all that to good use as an adult, she will probably ace life and be so, so resilient. Navigating peer pressure is tricky, great to get over that hump. Pull her close if you can, overlook the small stuff. If she just isn't playing ball, then an activity week with new peers as pp mentions might be an alternative she would relish. My sister thought very highly of the National Citizen Service Scheme for 16/17 year old in the summer- her youngest loved it and flourished over the summer she attended. Or there are various residential outdoor schemes which aren't too pricy if they volunteer, Google ideas for Gold Duke of Ed residential (you don't actually need to be doing the Award, although she may like to) - they may need a police check if volunteering so worth organising now for summer. All best.

We haven't been on holiday with ours since they turned 16. It got harder as they got older and it became really stressful.

You don't sound like you like her very much @Mama1209 which I'm sure she is picking up on too. I've always found that hurt people, hurt people - it's possible your daughter is lashing out so much because she is in a tremendous amount of emotional pain.

Are you okay, too? It sounds like you've been through a lot as well which I'm worried has been glossed over.

Is your daughter able to articulate why she thinks she behaves the way she does?

Did she actually say, ..."don’t work and aren’t going to bring her dad back" - does she want her dad back, were they close before he died?

It's interesting if she did as that sounds like (as well as living with paternal grandparents) that she is possibly seeking that connection again but of course is never able to fulfil it - other than seeking out some unsafe behaviours. I wonder if she is like her dad in temperament? Perhaps she is struggling with identifying herself with her dad and scared of what that might mean? You said that she was angry with you for not taking her side in an argument with your son - I wonder if she feels she does not fit in because she doesn't see herself, her behaviour reflected back in that moment by a parent (dad) and know that it'll be ok and she'll be accepted and forgiven anyway (but still given consequences/boundaries).

I think if you take her with you on holiday then you take her as she is regarding her emotions. It's probably hard for her to stop feeling the way she does at this moment in time, but you can certainly the two of you talk through a plan of if she is feeling angry/overwhelmed that she take herself off to calm down as you want to support her but can't when she is so angry she can't hear (and you're possibly reacting to it). Maybe state what your boundary is, i.e. no swearing aggressively at you in anger, no swearing around the younger siblings, and that if she does that, what she needs to do to self-regulate. If you know what the triggers are, could you head off an argument in a different way?

If you've considered she is neurodivergent, then lots of behaviour issues come down to anxiety - would that help you reframe it? Have you looked into how to support children who are ND?

Have you looked into the narcissistic family structure? Your daughter sounds like the ‘black sheep’ Your approach towards her sounds like you view her as the ‘black sheep’. Going forward it might be helpful to find a counsellor who could help you with this family dynamic. I hope your daughter gets all the support she deserves.

Ah, I'm so sorry, you've been through the mill too.

Sometimes, it's hard to meet another person's trauma & pain when we have had experience of our own, especially if on some level we are comparing the two.

I do hope you both can have some family counselling.

In your posts it really sounds like you don’t like your daughter OP. You had already moved on way before her father died and she knew it. Almost everything you write is about your daughter’s negative impact on yourself or the other children. You have not helped your daughter navigate through all the changes in her life yet you come across as wanting/needing everyone to think you’re a great parent dealing with the adversity that is your daughter. People are making ‘judgements’ based on the words you use. The fact you believe the major issue here is whether you should allow your daughter to go on holiday is incredibly enlightening.

@Otherstories2002 ,He died after prison though. And he went to prison for what again?
Losing your dad at 15 is not remotely comparable

Seems like you're here to pick at everything OP says.

Saying her dad died at 15 isn't saying it's the same thing, she knows loss and was therefore more aware of the needs of her daughter, which she's tried to meet but with no luck.

There are loads of kids who've lost parents but behave well.
There's been no diagnosis, so could all be teenage angst.
OP doesn't know, doctors don't know, but interesting that MN-ers can diogonise without even meeting the girl.

@iLovee You don't sound like you like her very much.......

You realise you can love your kids without liking their behaviour.

What parent would like to be called names in public by their daughter?

OP knows what she's tried isn't working, that's why she's on here.
Are women not meant to marry when they have young kids?
There'll be loads of kids whose situation is similar and have blended well into the new family.
How was OP to know her daughter would struggle in her teens?

Holier than thou people on here projecting or wanting to kick a mother when she's down are not being helpful.

If OP didn't like her daughter she wouldn't have made numerous trips to the doctor's, engaged with the schools, taken her on holiday, spend time just the two of them, got her into therapy, kept the relationship going with the partenal grandparents etc.
That's not the actions of a mother who doesn't care.

I'm one of four, same upbringing with my siblings yet it was just me who gave my mum a hard time. Other 3 were perfect kids.
No reason other than teenage hormones.
Luckily I grew out of it and has never been mentioned since.

Some kids are just more difficult than others. For all we know, she would be behaving the same were her dad still here.

Sorry you haven't gotten any help with the doctors.
Try and talk as much as possible. Communication is the key, but I realise the other person has to be willing too.

A good trick is to not let it be a sit down let's talk approach but casually bringing things up as asking for a friend sort of way.
Good luck OP.

The daughter was a one year old!
She's had 6 years of being an only child. What was the OP to do, not marry, not have more kids?

We all know sibling rivalry is a thing, even with blood siblings.
Daughter might resent OP for having other kids or remarrying but that's no way to live.

OP has given more context because its not just about the holiday.

If it were, she'd have simply asked, my 17yr old daughter calls me names and is disrespectful, should I take her on holiday.... and people would have said no, she's a spoilt brat.

If OP was so bad, daughter would stay at gran's and never come back. But she knows she's loved and has a home there.

Neglect because the girl chose to live with grandparents who provide her with anything she wanted, f... me.

OP some people here treat you like if your ex died and youshagged your new pertner on his grave, laughing Disney villain style as your daughter was being dragged away into her GPs basement.
Dont take too much notice, but do organise therapy and be firm. Many people do through trauma and dont belittle and sweat at their close ones in public as a result.

Thanks so much for this. Yes obviously I do care or I wouldn’t be here asking for advice. I wrote this a couple of hours after the incident so obviously I was angry and upset and came here looking for advice. It honestly does not bother me what strangers on the internet write. They are probably fat old men pretending to be mothers sat behind a keyboard trying to upset people because any decent loving mother would not write something like that to another.