To exclude one child from family holiday

[Mama1209]

I have a strained relationship with my eldest daughter. She basically lives with her grandparents. I try my hardest to make her feel loved, wanted & included. We have booked a summer holiday abroad this year. 6 of us in total so it’s not cheap. We have just been on a weekend break and she was a nightmare! Shouting and swearing calling me names in public etc. I don’t get it because she was really looking forward to it. It’s as soon as she doesn’t get her own way she kicks off. Now me and my husband will work hard all year to pay for this summer holiday and I don’t want her to ruin it for us and the other kids! AIBU to cancel her off? I feel like she would never forgive me and it would ruin any chance of building a stronger relationship so I’m torn!

I mean it doesn’t take a genius to work out why the DD has anger issues.

It sounds like your daughter has experienced a lot of trauma and rejection. If you cement that with excluding her from a family holiday that everyone else gets to go on, then that's probably going to be the final nail in the coffin for your relationship with her. That's the sort of thing people don't really get past having done to them when they're 17. She might be able to be civil with you, but if you do this, she will always remember it.

She's a traumatised and hurt 17 year old. Parenting her may well be difficult and even upsetting at times, but she's just as deserving of it as your other children.

Have you asked her how she feels your recent interactions have gone? What's her perspective? What does she want to do?

The fact you are even considering excluding a 17 year old child from your ‘family’ holiday speaks volumes when she’s already been living with grandparents. A lot of your responses are about how her behaviour has impacted you and your children, and your way of life. I feel very sorry for your 17 year old. I completely understand why she acts in anger.

Don’t underestimate the impact of bereavement.

childhood bereavement suddenly makes it clear that trusted adults in your life can, and do leave you. Whether it’s their choice or not.

it fucks up your ability to form secure attachments as it’s always there in the back of your head, what if they leave, and get into a car crash.

i spend most of my teen years pushing my mother away. I think if she’d had formed a new relationship and had more children I’d have struggled.

most of my thoughts are occupied with catastrophic thoughts. If I can’t hear dh snoring my brain immediately starts planning how I’ll call 999 and start cpr, and how will I tell the kids he’s died. If anyone’s late home I wait for the police to knock on the door…

But will she behave at Gran's place when she is in turmoil over being left behind? Will Gran be able to handle her if DD decides to stage a major event in revenge?

I think you have to include her.
It could be one of the last family holidays before she starts uni or a job and becomes more restricted in joining you.

Ideas ..
Confer with her grandparents and agree on a very lovely girlfriend of your daughter being invited too. Having a friend might help your daughter behave in an adult way. The two of them could do a couple of more independent activities together (and maybe with the 15 year old ss) such as surfing lessons or a more adult film, bowling. You could also give them a time where they are responsible and are asked to baby sit for an hour or two and preparing a meal for everyone.

You would expect to hear your daughter's opinions and I would not confront her but I would also expect polite, non shouting/swearing in front of others.

Your holiday could have blips of angry hurricane and be prepared to leave her to calm down until she composes acceptable words. Go on with your plans; don't give in to unreasonable requests or condone tantrums.

Wise words here, OP, from @WhatADayToHaveEyes and @InactionIsAWeaponOfMassDestruction.

I agree. I think it's all unfair to not give the information about dad's trauma. I feel sorry for her, basically mother has abandoned that child.

Can you both do trauma informed family therapy. Trauma is not just for losing her father. Kids who witness domestic violence between parents can also have trauma, plus her life changed when you moved on in your new life. It is not easy for some kids, not all kids are strong and resilient. A little extra empathy from parents is important for a child's healing in this kind of situation. If parents don't understand, who else can you rely on when you are a troubled teenager.

Agree with this and similar replies. Looks like she needs a good listening-to.

From the age of 16, my parents funded low-cost holidays (camping, youth hostelling) for me to go away with a friend instead of on the family holiday. Saved our parents from having to try and chivvy sullen teenagers along, and gave us the opportunity to be (teenage ideas of) grown up!

Depending on how your talks pan out, would something along those lines appeal?

Secondly, we are a family. I don’t just put one persons needs first.

This post of yours tells that you are too inflexible to tweak your rules for benefit of your troubled daughter.

To answer your question in Op, yes exclude her from summer family holiday. You are happier without her.

I would leave her at home if there’s a risk
she’d ruin the holiday for everyone else. At 17 she needs to learn it’s not acceptable to behave like that. Time to grow up or ship out!

This.

@Mama1209

I think - if she gets her up, there is no point arguing or challenging her, and it’s best to have discussions when she is a calm reasonable mood.

Can you just be really open with her, and say much as you’d want her to come - you don’t think she enjoyed the last holiday? Could you suggest you have an alternative weekend away with just you and her, doing something she really wants to do - and spend some quality time with her?
I think she’s found her past really difficult, and needed an extra helping of love and security.

When my DSD was a little younger than your DD she was a handful and constantly at risk of being excluded from school. Everytime her behavior got bad her mother would just ship her off to us instead of dealing with it. DSD also played off the 2 homes scenario to avoid the consequences of her awful conduct. When she was about 15 and back living with us I told her that if she behaved respectfully towards us we wouldn’t micromanage her and we’d treat her like an adult. She understood the concept of a social contract and things really improved. She’s now in her 30s and says I’m the only person who has held her accountable for her actions and it really helped her to navigate relationships….so I say have the talk and be really firm. If she needs to be excluded from the holiday to learn that if she acts unpleasantly no-one wants to endure that, then so be it.

Hi Op, I have a teen who went through a very difficult few years and has come out the other side - now an absolute gem. As far as I am aware they had no underlying truma to explain why they behaved as they did, other than teenage hormones. Age 17/18 they matured massively(part time job really helpful) and maybe that is what you are witnessing... I am not underplaying what you and your daughter have had to cope with, I am just saying you are getting a massively hard time on this thread when teens can behave badly/irrationally regardless.

What type of holiday are you going on?

Is there room in the itinerary to let teen do their own parallel thing if they want to? Eg, you guys off to the beech/waterpark for skrake of dawn, whilst eldest fulfils greatest desire of lounging in apartment/by pool. Then come together in the evening for nice meal and catch up. It would avoid a lot of disagreement flash points and keep everyone happy.

Have chat and see if realistic to accommodate her wishes and agree broad expectations on both sides, so everyone can have a stress free time. If she'd still like to go, that is a win and I would definitely bring her.

For us, holidays definitely brought us together. Yes, there were moments, but I had to learn to treat the older teen on adult terms (it is that funny half way house, where they are a child who wants to be treated like an adult, but is not yet behaving like an adult. I do think the Covid years affected a number of kids of this age group, regardless of circumstance, and they maybe taking a little longer to mature than normal). Cut her a little slack and it is amazing how they rise to your expectations when you drop the stress of asking them to comply.

Once given their freedom within the holiday, my DS was happy and with the pressure off, joined us for the bits that appealed to him, did his own thing rest of time (and yes, this included some ridiculously long lie-ins which irritated me, but we just ignored and he figured out he was wasting his own time etc).

All best whatever you decide.

She shouldn't be acting that way at 17 there is no need whatsoever. She needs to learn she can't always get her own way.
I don't envy you having to make the decision OP. It is a difficult one.
I've gone through childhood trauma and I would completely understand being excluded from a family holiday if I was behaving the way she was. There"s no excuse for her behaviour. She needs to learn personal responsibility.

Why sad? I stopped going on family holiday as well around that time as I rpeferred and started going on summer youth camps and trips with friends instead.

Projecting much?

Doubt the OP will be back. I wouldn't respond to this thread any more if I were her. Some kind advice but some absolute howlers as well...accusations coming in left, right and centre.

I hope those posters enjoyed themselves.

Op I think you need regular 121 time with her to try and rebuild your relationship. And possibly family councilling.

But I also think she possibly has Dad on a pedestal and he needs knocking off that. She needs to know about the DV and the prison sentence. Why you split. And she possibly has unanswered questions around his death.

Who's parents does she stay with ?
I'm guessing her Dads. You definitely don't think they are giving her views of him though Rose tinted glasses?

Re this holiday I'd have a long chat with her and discuss behaviour expectations before you decide to invite her or not.

I have refused to take my 16 year old abroad again after our last holiday. She was vile. I went without to pay for that holiday and she ruined it for us. From the moment we got to the airport she was kicking off. Never again!!

I'd probably be telling her straight that she won't be going after the way she spoke to you. But then no child of mine would call me a fucking slag anyway so it's an easy call for me. If she does want to come and you decide to take her last minute make it clear that if she abuses you like that again there's no further discussion, she just won't be taken on further holidays full stop and you won't even be telling her you're going.

I feel smth was missed from your side when she was younger, e.g.she could feel neglected for whatever (not valid for you) reason. It sounds like pent-up anger.
Not sure what I would have done with 17 years old, feels like the boat to address shipped about 4--5 years ago.
I assume you felt a bit of relieve at her going to GPs and giving you a bit of peace, letting her move elsewhere and not addressing the issue head on was what brought you here.

I had to edit this after I finally figured out that your DD has a different father than your 12 yr old DS.

I would have a discussion with DD and let her know that actions and behavior have consequences and what will happen her behavior continues. Lost of vacation, etc. Then, stick to it but make sure she knows that it's all HER control as to what happens.