To think Black Out nights in theatre ARE important

[PenguinLord]

I know there was a theatre that did it last year and a thread about it- but there is a West End venue this year which will host two or three black out nights (where "all-black-identifying audiences" are invited) of the Slave Play. I had mixed feelings, but after having read a few articles on it, I actually agree with the concept- for the record I am very much white.

Spokesperson for the PM criticised black out nights saying "“The prime minister is a big supporter of the arts and he believes that the arts should be inclusive".

But let's face it, theatre experience is far from inclusive or accessible. Having 2 out of a few dozen nights will not really make a difference, nor excludes people who are not black to attend literally 80 if not more other performances. I was in theatre this week, and had a good look around. 98% of the audience were white. There were a few Asian people and 1 (one) black person- in the audience of around 300.

I suppose Id be far less likely to attend an event where I would stick out like a very sore thumb, is it really such a big deal to have two performances where people who dont usually feel theatre is an inclusive space can feel welcome, surrounded by people that belong to the same community?

I find threads like this, that clearly want no discussion, only agreement, to be quite tiresome.

You don’t win an argument by just accusing all dissenting views as being racist although it is a common thing these days to try and do so. It simply screams ‘I am too thick to argue with you’.

As I have said before, I have no opinion on this particular issue really but thought this thread would provide an interesting read but alas no, just lots of people accusing others of racism with no actual basis. Yawn.

Oh well, am sure we will recover.

Wonderful debating, bravo.

Theatre in London is generally doing really well, Harry Clarke and Nye to take just two examples. This production looks so tedious with nobody popular leading the cast, so I guess the show’s team need to push the P.R a bit more somehow - the black out thing obviously did fuck all.

Thank you! Enjoy your day!

@CuttingMeOpenthenHealingMeFine I personally didnt post for anyone to convince me- and I think most people came with an idea they had and presented it. Some posters were just lazy and have no clue what the event is but came to blow the IT'S SEGREGATION horn, and some were racist, so there is also that. There were some good points on both sides, shame you missed them.
@curiositykilledthiscat Id think Kit Harrington is pretty popular. (but funnily enough, the playwright was not happy about castimg him in the play)

I honestly couldn’t care less. If the theatre thinks there’s a demand for this then crack on. But in all honesty I’m not a big theatre goer and a play about slavery doesn’t sound like something I’d personally enjoy so I’m losing absolutely nothing.

@PenguinLord

I have never denied the existence of racism but I think it is some ways a complex problem and it is not helpful to try and summarise racism in all its forms in terms of the simple narrative of white privlege.

if Japanese Americans are successful in a range socio-economic metrics they may be 'deemed' successful and therefore not felt the brake of white privilege. Acceptance is a more subtle concept and one harder to measure empirically - I think it is something possibly subjective. If an ethnicity say SE Asians can be shown as a demographic to be as equally successful as white people on a population level where is the white privilege?

I think acceptance is an actually interesting concept as it embraces more than skin tone or ethnicity and possibly is dependent on culture or the degree to which someone assimilates to a host culture. I think we bring in ideas of speaking fluently in the host country language, shared religion, education etc. which I think culture may actually be a factor that promotes a greater degree of discrimination than skin tone alone.

@PenguinLord

it's interesting as I have just been to the RSC where there was a diverse cast for a Shakespeare play and there were a negligible number of ethnic minorities in the audience. I think when we're dealing with Shakepeare there may be sense that some demographics need to be convinced Shakespeare is relevant to them (which it certainly is). To bring diverse audiences to the bard we need to get rid of his image of a dead white make which hinders I believe access to the greatest writer about the human condition that ever lived.

It was a diverse cast ethnically but I think what the cast had in common was near perfectly spoken English with very much middle class enunciation. When I watched interviews with the cast without being to presumptuous they were all very much from reasonably good educational backgrounds and relatively stable financially backgrounds. there seems to ethnic diversity in the theatre but do we have background/class diversity?

There are quite a few well established black country artists, and I suspect that Beyoncé doing well in (what she considers) country music is more due to her already established fans buying her music than country fans buying it.

S o m e not all people of Japanese origin may be successful- some despite white priviledge, some because they carved for themselves a niche within the community. You gloss over the fact that Japan for many years has been doing extremely well economically, which was helpful in creating a certain image of Japanese people, as was the case with pop culture and fashion. Would you say Mexican people enjoy the same sort of priviledge to illustrate lack of white priviledge? Because they most certainly don't.
It's a bit like saying- we dont have a problem with racism in the UK because some Norwegian or Swedish people in the UK are doing well. But racism is often not turned towards foreigners in general, but foreigners from countries considered poorer or inferior. Japan these days is not considered poor nor inferior, but that does not mean white priviledge does not exist.
As a side note, since we were talking about arts, how many actors of Japanese origin do you know that play main roles in Hollywood films? How many mainstream musicians? How many Japanese Oscar nominees? How many Grammy nominees? Some ceilings are much harder to break than others.

@PenguinLord

I think it interesting you mentioned relative economic strengths of countries and I thin k yes looking down on 'inferior' countries is part of prejudice that needs to be counters whether that is toward s a di rt poor Albanian or Sudanese person.
this shows skin tone though a factor is some areas of discriminati on is a factor there are other powerful factors that makes this a complex subject.

A Mexican in the US may be treated differently to a Spanish tourist yet have similar skin tone and name origin. Again skin tone and ethnicity could be drowned out by other sources of discrimination.

There are more Asians in US television but I actually thought some of the portrayals were a little sgerotypical, ' 'Dirty Rich Asians' for example. There was in my opinion to much portrayal of asians as 'nerdy' or overcommited to study.

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@mids2019 But this brings us to the original question- is there or is there not white proiviledge?
Just ebcause some people dont experience it, does not mean it does not exist.
There are some amazing Japanese/Chinese/Korean etc actors around the world. And yet when employed in the West, they often play stock 'Asian martial arts person' type of roles.
If Japan was a country with the economy of Cambodia, the post-war racism towards the Japanese would be a lot more visible.
A similar situation happens in Europe with Germany and Eastern Europe. There is a lot of racism against Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian people etc. Does it mean that they can't be successful? No, some will make careers for themselves and do well. But jokes about Polish car thieves told on national TV by well known presenters are happening.

I suppose to tie all of this to the original idea- I dont think you can deny that there is a white priviledge (which does not contradict the fact that white people are facing challenges- they are just different). And that in a country with a difficult history, you will have a lot of citizens who are made to feel unwelcome and don't feel they belong.

This article I linked before I found really interesting, I have seen the performer and one of the play she mentions- she tackles the idea you mentioned earlier about Shakespeare and accents (and in the play you heard a bit of everything,) https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/12/romeo-and-juliet-shakespeare-black-actors-francesca-amewudah-rivers

@PenguinLord

I think there is privelege gained by being an established member of any community and wealth or perception of wealth has something to do with it. I just don't think labelling these complex privileges with a single term 'white'. To my mind it is too simplistic.

with regard to be theatre I think casts are a lot more diverse and actors are taking on a greater range of roles. Having been to the RSC and seeing a negligible number of people from ethnic minorities I wonder if it something about the culture of theatre going itself that needs to change to be more attractive to all?

@mids2019 - yes casts are becoming more diverse, but it's a relatrively new thing and many minorities and groups are still underepresented (disabled actors, working class actors, working class actors from ethnic minorities). It's a bit like that year 3 black actors won Oscars and Academy was conratulating itself how inclusive they were. Never since it happened.
People wont just start turning up to theatres because there is a black cast in it. For some it may not be a part of their culture, becuse their families never went. For others there can be other reasons.

I think you misunderstand the term white priviledge- because it does not imply only white people can be successful. It's about not having to think of certain things because they are a given, while they are not a given to people who are not white. A simple example would be many makeup artists even today not having a range of dark enough foundations for darker skinned models, who still have to bring their own foundations to shoots and work. White models may not even realise how lucky they are to have everything provided. It does not mean that there are no successful black models. It's just that it's harder to be successful for non-white people. The fact a few will be successful does not mean it's gonna be the case for everyone.
Or stuff like this:
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2020/racial-discrimination-in-face-recognition-technology/

@PenguinLord

couldn't your example be simply down to the market. If there is a greater demand for a certain kind of product shops will sell it?

I just think the concept of white privilege does not stand up to scrutiny in some areas. Racism, yes, everyone can relate to racism and discrimination and it can fairly easily deomstrated. White privilege though is something more abstract that seems to infer a privilege for white people simply because of not being a person of colour. I think white privilege in reality boils down to the presence of racism (which causes relative advantage when applied). I don't think white people as a generic whole have some vaguely defined privilege; if you counter racism and prejudice the privilege disappears.

another issue as discussed is that white is far to simple a box to cover the myriad complexities of prejudice, social mobility, racism etc. We can have academic arguments about who actually constitutes white people and who constitutes poc and I think there are areas where caveats apply that undermine the theory, Jews, pale skinned arabs, white Muslims, people of mixed race etc. All ethnicities or cultures that aren't easy to his into 'white ' for the theory to stand.

@PenguinLord

it is also interesting that in the article about casting you linked to the author describes herself as a pale skinned mixed race person and not subject to the bike racist abuse that an actor with a darker skin tone experienced.

to my mind there may be sub categories of privilege within poc themselves and the concept just becomes too nebulous and debatable to feel robust.

@PenguinLord

just a thought but could some of what is perceived as white privilege actually be class privlege. If you have a disproportionate number of poc in lower classes ( not that this is a good thing) it would appear that there is discrimination against pic when in reality the discrimination may be based on class and to an extent so think this may be a factor in the arts.

No, you still dont get it (a case of white priviledger? lol).
I live in an area where probably 30-40% of people are not white. I teach in a school where a vast majority of kids are not white. And yet the local Boots or Superdrug had darker foundations for years and years, so my friends had to order them online from brands that did them. I can stroll to any shop anywhere and get makeup I want. I can buy tights in my skin colour. They can't because the tights are either too pale being my skin colour or black- and black tights are not their 'skin' colour. You cant believe there is no demand for products like these. There is definitely demand, but no supply, because suppliers dont care or they would have to put some effort into sourcing more items- on their behalf it's racism or ignorance at best. This does not mean all white people have it great, but that as a rule of thumb there are problems we will never have to face- because we are white. As an immigrant I have faced racism, but I am still white and can stroll into a hairdresser who will be able to dela with my hair. My Jamaican friend has to go to specialised salons as only 5% of hairdressers in the UK have been trained how to do afro hair and it's not part of the training in most training providers.

Anyways, we will need to agree to disagree on this, because we're getting too far from the original point and not sure if I have anything more to add.

If a group of black billionaires settled in a city there would soon be hairdressers attending their every whim and they would be able to source every type of toner under the sun......money talks! I think you are maybe reading too much into market disconnect.

I think it is good to disagree and it is important to note that even if you disagree with white privilege then you are entitled to do so....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/20/teaching-white-privilege-is-a-fact-breaks-the-law-minister-says

I think one of the nefarious things about white privilege doctrine in the US is that it is taught in some places as unconcontestable.and that is scary. I think We have a much better approach in the UK.

I couldn't be upset about this, to me it is something aimed at a minority group that is prioritising that minority group.

Teaching white privilege on the other hand is something I would be very wary of, to me it sets black people up as victims which isn't a positive IMO. In a similar vein there is a lot of neurodiversity in my family, but I wouldn't my son with ASD to be taught that around 80% of people with Asperger's syndrome are unemployed.

Why would anyone think that was helpful, even if it is the truth?

@takemeawayagain

I think you have an important point in that teaching white privilege discourages poc as they feel the system is weighted against them and antagonises non poc as they feel they are being made to feel guilty or their achievements are undeserved. It is not helpful.

in the US racial politics has infiltrated education to an extent that maths and science are seen as 'white' subjects as many of the mathematicians and scientists were white often working in a time of racial segregation and oppressio n. We really don't want views that would discourage anyone from pursuing science or maths.

@takemeawayagain
Teaching white privilege on the other hand is something I would be very wary of, to me it sets black people up as victims which isn't a positive IMO. In a similar vein there is a lot of neurodiversity in my family, but I wouldn't my son with ASD to be taught that around 80% of people with Asperger's syndrome are unemployed

See, I can see where you're coming from there but I do think it's important that people are aware of their own white privilege if only to hopefully make them more aware of injustice

@GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight Goo

I think people can be aware of injustice in its many forms without accepting white privilege as a concept. I am aware of injustice in terms of social equality, hereditary wealth and entrenched power but don't need white privilege to prop up those views. A

in my opinion injustice to great extent can be sourced to racism without the need to have white people as a population carrying a vaguely defined set of privileges.