To think Black Out nights in theatre ARE important

[PenguinLord]

I know there was a theatre that did it last year and a thread about it- but there is a West End venue this year which will host two or three black out nights (where "all-black-identifying audiences" are invited) of the Slave Play. I had mixed feelings, but after having read a few articles on it, I actually agree with the concept- for the record I am very much white.

Spokesperson for the PM criticised black out nights saying "“The prime minister is a big supporter of the arts and he believes that the arts should be inclusive".

But let's face it, theatre experience is far from inclusive or accessible. Having 2 out of a few dozen nights will not really make a difference, nor excludes people who are not black to attend literally 80 if not more other performances. I was in theatre this week, and had a good look around. 98% of the audience were white. There were a few Asian people and 1 (one) black person- in the audience of around 300.

I suppose Id be far less likely to attend an event where I would stick out like a very sore thumb, is it really such a big deal to have two performances where people who dont usually feel theatre is an inclusive space can feel welcome, surrounded by people that belong to the same community?

I think the equity concept is quite clever, but needs context, and is not a trump card.

We have to remember the goal of a genuinely fair and equal society is to give everyone a fair crack of the whip at achieving their potential, it isn’t to try to give one group a greater chance because they have had a lesser chance historically. Some may think it is, but I just believe this perpetuates resentments between people.

I do believe that people need role models, so when you are coming out of an era of overt discrimination (SA after apartheid or the U.S after overt racism) then I think positive discrimination is a good thing. But it has to be time limited and area specific. So a lower requirement for female or black engineers might be a good thing until there are sufficient role models for young girls or black people to believe they can be great engineers (how many is sufficient is obviously subjective).

The people who most dislike positive discrimination are often the truly talented minority people who believe others think they are there as tokens and not due to ability and hard work.

Relating the above to this specific case, the arts are one of the most inclusive areas of life in the uk and have been for decades. There is no need for positive discrimination. Yes, the subject of the play concerns blacks and past trauma, but most serious plays concern trauma of one sort or another.

Should we sexually divide audiences of Oleanna ?

well first there would have to be a black only play.

which there isn’t.

do keep up.

Well, what do you think would happen if there was a "white only play"?

Why not talk us through what you think would be the similarities and differences between a "white only play" and the Black Out nights that are being proposed here.

Looking forward to your analysis.

@Newbutoldfather

I thoroughfare right and the arts has had an over representation of certain ethnicities at times so I don't think we can single the arts out as being racist at all. I also think the r should be caution amongst a new generation of ethnic minorities developing a victim culture where instead about being positive about opportunities they have a sense that the whole world is against them so why bother. I think this breeds resentment and some people may not reach their potential. I think also principle get some who when faced with the myriad challenges and unfairness of life may automatically go to race as the route of their problems. The concept of white privilege feeds into this.

So true.

Things like Critical Race Theory (CRT) feeds that thinking and actively teaches children segregation. It’s horrendous. Some American schools have been ambushed by it. A few U.K. too but hopefully not many.

@Lion400

we are not the US. I think the US has very much a separate racial and social history is and we shouldn't find to much equivalence. I think a lot of white privilege is in reality about a certain section of white people atoning for the sins of generations past when colonisation (and slavery) occured. It is collective white supposed guilt.

I think if we were to take the southern states of the US there possibly is racism prevalent simply due to the history of the US. By all means concentrate on the problems in this states in terms of racism and discrimination but don't start extrapolating to produce some ill defined white privilege that sits with anyone with a 'white' skintone. How does that help?

the theory of skin privilege is tested by taking an example of a Hispanic living in the US . The Hispanic would suffer in some regard due to the the white privilege in the US but if he were to emigrate to Spain then obviously no white privilege given the demographics of Spain but there may a 'Spanish privelge' in that settled Spaniards would have advantage due to the fact their families have lived in the countries for generations.

I think social problems and prejudice are far to nuanced to be packaged into a simple (and possibly offensive) moniker of 'white privilege' which only serves to antagonize white people.with its simple ethnic description and mention of privilege.

The theory also is sorely tested by mixed race people where we have to append a binary theory of having or not having a certain type of privilege to a spectrum of skin tone and ethnic diversity. How do you do that?

I also think that part of the 'white ' privilege mentioned in reality takes into account having a possibly anglicised name, middle class education, being part of our social establishment and not being overly fixated with race. I am not conservative but you Kemi Badenoch as being some sort of antithesis to white privilege theory who has gained prominence through her opposition of this and other aligned social views. I feel this that advocate white privilege are possibly resentful of successful black people as they have somehow sold out to UK establishment culture by making their way is a system they wish to portray as systemically racist. In order to square the circle of systemic racism and successful people of colour then proponents of white privilege need to label those people of having some white characteristic (in the abstract sense) that allows them to overcome this all prevailing white privilege.

Once last thing in the arts musicians are actively trying to promote their non whiteness of possible or actively be ally of musicians of colour. I think this is part of the arts culture where theories such as white privilege are more easily accepted and a sense that white musicians' success may be diminished by people saying it is a fruit of white privlege. Taylor Swift is coming in for some really slurs about being 'a white supremacists dream' in some quarters of American society for example. Dua Lipa would probably not want to mention ethnicity overly much in an interview (fair enough) but if pressed maybe accentuate her non British heritage to distance herself from the white music estbalishment.

Sorry about the typos

And also language and the ability to speak and write the English word. To my mind this is a massive factor in privilege and social mobility. In a lot of cases white privilege of you assume it exists is conflated with the ability to speak English well with a relatively soft accent. In my experience a lot of prejudice (and by extension white privlege) is due to miscommunication or difficulty to converse fluently. It just seems that when you see successful poc they are often have eloquent speech and I wonder if speech is yet another privilege that should override skin tone?

Great post @mids2019 To sum it up. It's all very complicated!

@mids2019 Just a quick one, Dua Lipa has frequently mentioned her ethnicity in interviews and her heritage and strong links to Kosovo where she and her family areorganising a yearly music festival.

I kind of wonder re your previous post, which arts show an overrepresentation of certain enthnicities. My impression is that while there are people of some ethnicities present, as we can see from the recent R&J debate, some areas still seem to be reserved for white folk only and some ethnicities are allowed in, but only to certain degree and as long as they are not becoming too prominent.

@PenguinLord

I think you can see with Beyonce what may be considered as a black women doing extremely well in a genre associated with white people i.e. country currently (which is great).

I think though that racial crossover of genres maybe works one way with white people getting accused of cultural misappropriation if they go into certain genre of music perhaps rap.

I suppose I was trying to point out that if we are using simplistic racial divided such as white/colour then invariably you will get people that are hard to place in these binary categories. Dua Lipa is white but given her Kosovan Muslim heritage may wish to identify herself with some of the prejudice faced in the UK (who knows).

https://encyclopedia.densho.org/Success%20Story,%20Japanese%20American%20Style%20(article)/

Also when considering white privilege let's think about the Japanese American experience An ethnicity which is now successful in the US with good educational attainment, good life expectancy etc

However during WW2 Japanese Americans were literally put into concentration camps and American opinion was too few nuclear weapons were dropped on Japan, Japanese people were utterly dehumanised.

What has changed in 80 years. Why hasn't white privilege held back American Japanese after being an utterly oppressed and vilified race in the 40s?

@mids2019 I dont think using Beyonce as an example of overrepresentation of black people in country music is a good example... If there were all of a sudden 70% of black people sreleasing county music, maybe. But one? I would not even say there is an overrepresentation of black artists in music in general, ofc you will have genred with many/mostly black artists, but it hardly translates to overal overrepresentation. I cant remember if Eminem being accused of cultural appropriation when he released his album.

I think you are confusing so many ideas here. While Japanese people may seem as 'successful' it does not mean that a daily existence of a person who is non-white (especially outside big cities) is a bed of roses (and racism from s o m e people of the odler generation still exists!) Not to mention other Asians, who faced and still face a lot of racism (my Korean friends who were brought up in the US in the 80's 90's recall the amount of abuse they were facing on a daily basis, think of the racist abuse of many Chinese people in the wake of Covid- people shouting Nihao at Vietnamese people, because all Asians look the same to them). It's a whole different concept of being 'successful' and 'accepted'. Many people are still held back by having a foreign sounding name on an application and a different skin colour.

I cant remember if Eminem being accused of cultural appropriation when he released his album.

He was very heavily criticised for being a white rap artist, in particular from the fellow rappers who were not as good (or at least didn’t sell as much).

As to the OP, I would have thought that any kind of segregation would go against inclusivity but as someone who doesn’t attend the theatre (because I don’t want to, Im neither a minority or poor - as people seem to think these are the only reasons people don’t go - some of us just don’t like it) I don’t have a particularly strong opinion either way.

I suppose if you are trying to drum up publicity for your play then it’s a good way to go about it.

@CuttingMeOpenthenHealingMeFine I phrased it badly- I literally have no recollection of Eminem's first years, so was not sure if people were upset about him.

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On another note, re: the racial equality in the arts, a really good piece I think people should read
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/12/romeo-and-juliet-shakespeare-black-actors-francesca-amewudah-rivers

Well it appears from ticket sales that actually nobody wants to see the play whether they are black, white or purple.
Availability is good for every single performance

I read a breakdown of the plot and thought it sounded fucking awful.

i was hoping for something that might be challenging and thought-provoking but the plot just sounds awful. Bizarre, unpleasant, and divisive - I really struggle to see the appeal of it.

And I say that as someone who loves the theatre and enjoys controversial and challenging themes.

I would not say nobody wants to see it, but it definitely has not created the buzz some of the plays like R+J or Oedipus. I presume people wait for the opening night to book... or it will be a dud like Sheridan Smith's The Opening Night that will have its closing night 6 or however many weeks before tha planned ending.

The entire theatre industry is on its arse atm. It’s not just this play that’s suffering

Not my experience at all, I love going to the theatre and it's always packed out when I do.

Id disagree- I have seen a lot of good things recently that I really enjoyed. Some things are better than others, but overal plenty to pick from and most things I went to see over the past feew years gathered substantial audience.

It’s divisive and stokes racial tensions IMO.

How does it stoke racial tensions

Does it remind racist people that they have forgotten to be racist recently so they better get on with being so

😀

How, exactly?