To want every woman in England to vote Tory at the GE

[Hurrydash]

Wow. I started a thread with 1000 posts on a topic in 12 hours and Mumsnet got ‘full’

One more off the bucket list!

So MN told me to start a new thread if I wanted to post anything else. I didn’t particularly but there were some queries raised in the first thread.

Thank you to all first thread posters, even the small minority who were abusive to me and/or my opinions. Coherent arguments may have been more persuasive.

I have read many posts, but not all. I do have work to do!

In answer to some queries:

Yes I was drunk - explains GR typo in the first title not GE. Although that could well have been a Freudian slip too.

I am English living in England.

I’m not an entitled git living in a Stately home eating cucumber sandwiches. Like most I have been hit very hard by mortgage rate and utility price rises.

I restricted my request to English voters because I don’t understand other UK countries voter motivations.

a) Scotland has voted in a party which in my opinion is morally bankrupt (maybe financially too?) and totally incompetent.

b) Wales has elected a party which means when they go for a drive they’ll likely be overtaken by cyclists - maybe very fit joggers too

c) I genuinely don’t understand Northern Ireland politics. Didn’t even know there were no Tories there till reading it on one of the posts.

Totally get why so many won’t vote Tory, but for me freedom of speech is a die in a ditch issue.

Here’s what Angela Eagle is reported to have said will be in the Labour manifesto:

“• Strengthening the law so anti-LGBT+ hate crimes are treated as aggravated offenses”

For this I read anyone stating biological facts risks being banged up. JKR no doubt top of their hit list.

So give me another option to stop this madness other than vote Tory.

If all posters on the first thread had said they weren’t going to vote Labour due to their threat to women’s rights maybe Labour would have paused for thought about their policies. But seems very many women will vote Labour anyway so they don’t have to worry.

Very very happy to vote Labour and kick the Tories out if they will commit unequivocally to protect women’s rights, parents rights and freedom of speech. Otherwise not a chance.

Here is a good thread that illustrates exactly what the government thinks of those who care for children (mostly women).

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5042078-aibu-to-feel-annoyed-about-free-childcare

Yep, the like of Jezza Hunt who is on rocky ground as it is will be counting down the days to a comfortable retirement with that one.

Can we hope also the MP for Surrey Heath?

Rwanda is a great example of a really bad Tory policy. Legislating that Rwanda is a "safe country" as if declaring something in Parliament somehow makes it true in the real world is obviously nonsensical. I feel like there's a parallel there with the GRA...

What is the parallel?

Declaring a country is safe because you want to deport people there, and you can only do so to safe countries, does not make that country actually safe.

A legal document that declares a man is now a woman (or vice versa) does not mean that they actually are.

I thought you meant scapegoating a small group of people

Presumably we could make the same argument about any legal document.

A legal document that says you are married, well no actually you aren't.
A lgeal document that says you own a house, well no actually you don't.

I think there is a big difference actually. One course is likely to be unlawful further to the ECHR and the other is lawful. I'll leave you all to work out which one falls into the unlawful category.

Moderate people have given up voting Conservative- and the only reason for that is their constant stoking of division and failure to deliver. It's actually heartening to see that the UK voter is not generally as hate driven as the now radicalised, racially diverse Conservative Party. They are just a bunch of demented populists who hopefully have not yet realised that they are suffering their own Corbyn syndrome every day by mainlining this stuff seriously rather putting it in the Daily Mail as a joke to appease the frothers.

You only have to look at the type of person now influential in the party. They lack sense, gravitas and intellect. They are a national embarrassment.

Yes. I remember when Brexit was happening and dealing with some more One Nation style Tories. They knew Brexit was poison, they knew Johnson would finish them off by injecting this radicalism into their party. It has taken five years for this poison to work. I don't believe Rishi Sunak even believes in his own immigration policy. This is all Suella Braverman who does believe in it. She is the future of the Conservatives and much good it will do them. It is all deserved really because this Labour super majority that looks more and more likely will mean this new Conservative movement will find it very hard to make an opposition. The current government have absolutely smashed all the constitutional conventions which traditionally stopped an abuse of power.

Is that your best argument?

A wedding certificate and a deed of ownership work because marriage and ownership are already legal concepts.

A certificate saying a man is a woman, a cat is a dog or a my car is skateboard and therefore exempt from MOTs don’t work because they are attempts to contradict material reality.

Not my argument, your argument.

My argument is that using a legal process such as a certificate or parliamentary vote to declare something that contradicts material is harmful, because that process can't alter reality, but people are expected to go along with the legal fiction.

Most progressive people I know agree with me in the case of declaring Rwanda "safe". Views are more split on the GRC. I think that's hypocritical because they are very similar situations.

None so blind as those who will not see. It takes quite hard work to avoid seeing the appalling record we currently have for child poverty, crumbling schools, lengthening NHS queues, repeated sewage discharges into open water, inadequate and insanitary social housing, overcrowded and frankly disgusting prisons, waits for several years for criminal charges to come to trial, underfunded rescue services, a dreadful care system - but you seem to have managed it.

If we redefine woman as 'anyone who says they're a woman', it affects the safety of ALL women because legal protections no longer mean anything.

Total non-sequitur. If that is the level of logic of those who support OP, you have to wonder about their ability even to find their way to the polling station.

It's not as if Labour has ever said it would take that position. The only party that has ever put that forward is the Conservatives.

A certificate saying a man is a woman, a cat is a dog or a my car is skateboard and therefore exempt from MOTs don’t work because they are attempts to contradict material reality.

But there are vehicles in a grey area where a certificate defining whether they are a car or not is definitive. So logically that could apply elsewhere.

How is it a non sequitur?

If Lia Thomas can be a woman, then you can't give women the protection of single sex sports.
If Isla Bryson can be a woman, then you can't give women the protection of single sex prisons.
If Pippa Bunce can be a woman, you can't give women the protection of accurate gender pay gap reporting.
If any man who has the wherewithal to convince a doctor that being male makes him feel dysphoria, can be declared a woman, then no women will have the protection of single sex toilets or changing rooms.

Do we need to vote Tory so more of their MPs can send people pictures of their members?

No thanks.

Several Tory MPs have been accused of sexual misdemeanours, some worse, I think they're the last party women should be voting for

If you want a nasty woman abuser you can look at former Tory MP Andrew Griffiths who spent his time sending obscene messages to women about wanting hurt them, raped his wife and enjoys pinching his child to the point it hurts and he can no longer see the child. He still thinks he's been hard done by and is not a monster btw.

No. Fuck off.

I've been hearing about how Sunak plans to fast-track legal cases involving Rwanda deportees by throwing a hell of a lot of money at appointing 150 new judges solely for that purpose.

Yes, this is a man who can't put funding into the justice system to ameliorate the fact that it takes years to bring rapists to trial, but can put it in basically to try to save his face on his ridiculous five pledges. Does anyone still believe he gives a fuck about women's rights?

So the outlandish title of the thread was meant to awaken us to the potential dangers of a future Labour government vis a vis women's safety- freedom of speech etc.

Two things have happened since:

One is evidence - in the thread's comments - of a massive disregard for whatever Labour may or may not do on these issues because the Tories have been so appalling - very scary - but

Two on the upside the SNP have introduced a ridiculous law which in many people's opinions has been rubbished by JKR and has led Labour to wheel out spokespersons saying they would never do such a thing. And the Cass report has had Labour reeling and backtracking - look at what Streeting is saying now compared to what he said before.

So maybe Labour in only a month are less of a threat. Good news . But beware!!

No Way am I voting Tory. I never have- and I've voted in every election since 1983- and certainly won't for this lot!

And let's note that the worst women's rights abusers, from the Trumpsters to the extreme of the Taliban, are generally not people who 'don't know what a woman is', but those who know all too well and want to put and keep us in our place.