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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want every women in England to vote Tory at the GR

1000 replies

Hurrydash · 28/03/2024 02:01

So I don't agree with Angela Rayner's description of the Tories as scum, but I get her drift and if she'd been more tempered in her language I probably would have bought in.

HOWEVER

For me - and actually should be got everyone - the only real issue at the next GE is freedom of speech/women's rights.

I see Labour as the destroyer of these and so must vote against them. The only meaningful way to do this is to vote Tory which I am reluctant but prepared to do.

Is this unreasonable?

Happy to be convinced - for real not just words - if there is evidence Labour (Starmer 1 in 1000 women have a dick) may see the light before the GE.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
crockofshite · 28/03/2024 12:30

Kier starmer not knowing the difference between a man (with a penis) and a woman (without a penis) is not a reason to dismiss labour policies.

Iwasafool · 28/03/2024 12:31

justteanbiscuits · 28/03/2024 12:23

Not a bloody chance.

I care way more about women than a simple definition. I care about their healthcare, I care about their rights to bodily autonomy, I care about their rights to be safe on the streets, I care about there being a adequately funded police force to protect them, I care about their right to be believed when they have been raped, I care about their access to affordable childcare, I care about menopausal women.

If you don't care about the above, and only care about a description, then knock yourself out and vote Tory. But do not say you are voting Tory on the basis of supporting women. Because you aren't.

I was told on a thread that it isn't just about description it's about having to sit on a lavatory that a man has sat on. When you compare that to the other stuff we have to worry about it is clearly a top priority isn't it?

DitheringBlidiot · 28/03/2024 12:31

araiwa · 28/03/2024 02:06

If the Tories are the only ones who ' know what a women is' its only so they can fuck them over

Yabu

Hear hear

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 12:31

BronwenTheBrave · 28/03/2024 11:56

Well there is this I suppose:
https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/

Yes and Starmer won't have anything to do with them.

CaribouCarafe · 28/03/2024 12:32

ifIwerenotanandroid · 28/03/2024 12:23

The sort of answer I'm looking for is a straight one: what will/can Labour do & where's the money coming from?

Previous Labour governments have not been perfect either, btw.

Why are Labour being held to higher account than the Conservatives? The Tories have raised taxes and provided no value.

To ramp up our economy we needed investment, not treating our economy like a household budget and cutting back on anything they felt they could get away with.

One way to raise capital is by taking on more debt - this is not a bad thing as long as there is a strategy behind it and it results in higher growth.

British productivity is flagging, this is in part down to substandard health care, education and welfare. It doesn't make sense to create a system where people feel penalised for working more (i.e. through loss of benefits or frol punitive tax cliff edges or from high childcare costs) and therefore decrease their participation in the labour force. We have high counts of people who are out of work or reduced to part time hours due to health conditions that could've been treated earlier and resulted in them re-entering the full workforce sooner.

The above was not helped by the chronic mismanagement of Covid by the Tories who opted for the worst fucking decisions at every turn and then allowed their party members to profiteer from the whole ordeal.

It's not just about throwing more money in, it's about directing the money we have at the right things. Not migrant boats, Rwanda, HS2, sham covid contracts and all the other fuckery that has happened under Tory rule.

So fuck off with the disingenuous "how will Labour pay for this" rhetoric. PS Labour is not the only non-tory party out there.

WrenNatsworthy · 28/03/2024 12:33

I have never voted Conservative in my life. No. Absolutely not.

AdamRyan · 28/03/2024 12:33

How has a thread about Tories turned into a thread about Labour? There are plenty of other options if you've had enough of the Conservatives.

I do feel sorry for dyed in the wool Tories having to desperately cast around for a Labour bogeyman to justify them voting the way they always have. Someone in my family does the same so I'm familiar with the strategy.

Highsecurity · 28/03/2024 12:33

You're missing the point. Any male who says he is transwoman IS transwoman. They can't be questioned. And, he was emboldened to enter because he knew all he had to do was claim to be transwoman.

You don’t know what emboldened him. He’s a sex offender who went into a female toilet presenting as a man filming women. Then claiming to be a trans women had no effect. It is not a plausible strategy to evade justice. You’re trying to blame trans people for this man’s actions. He may have said he was a trans woman but he was not believed. So no, any male who says he is a ‘transwoman’ clearly isn’t.

When women are PUNISHED for calling a man out, that is self-ID. Whether you want to admit it or not. When Labour say TWAW, they are saying they support self ID. Pure, plain and simple. And like most feminists, I am left wing.

There is a difference between self ID as a legal policy and what you’re describing which practically amounts to wanting to be able to challenge every single trans person. Legally some trans women are women.

Interesting though you feel the need to assume I am a right wing voter.

Apologies I can see you haven’t written about voting. I was responding in the context of op setting the premise of the thread that is if you support women’s rights you should vote Tory. Again apologies.

Everywhere. In many countries.

What men saying they are men just to get access to female spaces? The examples are very very few. Just because JK Rowling tweets one example to millions of people doesn’t make it actually happening everywhere in many countries.

Yes, it is, the risk of men in our spaces is a daily risk. It's a risk I, as a rape survivor, weigh up every single day. As do Domestic Violence survivors. We think about it every.single.day.

Sorry that happened to you.
Yes many of us are wary of men every day. Coming across trans women in female spaces is still quite rare and the likelihood of being attacked by a trans woman in these spaces is extremely rare/ unlikely. I can see why most voters don’t think this is a major election issue.

He was originally in a female prison (and it doesn't matter that he was 'segregated').

Yes, under a Conservative UK government and an SNP Scottish government. Now in a male prison. Not sure what that proves either way really. Probably what anyone wants it to.

WRONG! See the swimming centre example, also Planet Fitness, etc etc.

Leaving aside that’s actually 2 examples, there is a difference between men who are not transitioning trying to access female spaces and trans women going about their business and using some female spaces. Trans women using female toilets and changing rooms are not doing anything illegal or wrong. (Personally I do think for changing rooms where people are undressing then should be post op or individual space).

Transwomen are MEN.

No they are not. Protected belief.

92% of them retain their penis and testicles.

Where do you get that statistic from?

They are men, with cock and balls... only in a dress, instead of a suit and tie. Minding their business or not, they are still men accessing womens spaces. And, as you prove, we cannot all them out or remove them.

Many of them are not. The EHRC have stated in the UK that people should not be challenging other people’s gender. That doesn’t mean that a man, clearly not transitioning, presenting as a man cannot be challenged or removed from a female space. It also doesn’t mean that if someone, even a genuine trans woman, is misbehaving or offending then they can’t be challenged or dealt with. This is common sense for most people.

No there haven't been. Because almost none of them actually transition and they always stand out, and we women could back then, call them out. And regardless, even if they wre there 'for decades' (which is a lie), that doesn't make it right. The 'they were always there' is not the defensive supporting argument or justification you think it is.

Seriously what toilets do you think transsexuals have been using for the last 50 years?
You might not accept that there is a process of medical and surgical transition, but there is. Some people transition socially and change some of their physical sex characteristics. In UK law the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is defined as transitioning from one sex to the other or ‘changing physiological or other attributes of sex’. Regardless of whether you believe it is possible to do this or not.

I can assure you it IS a problem to the RAPE VICTIM or BATTERED WOMAN who comes across them, even if the ingratiating person that runs the place says it isn't. There have been 4 different rapes by transwomen in 4 (four) separate battered womens hostels in Canada (yes I know, not UK but transwomen have dangerously higher patterns of sexually offending universally) alone. How many would be enough for you? Give us a number where you would think excluding these men are justified

Sorry I don’t think all trans people should be punished or be denied transitioned sex-based rights because some men have committed heinous crimes.
Many sex offenders in prison identified as trans after getting caught. I don’t think this means that medically diagnosed and treated trans women are a significant risk to the female population no.

‘How many would be enough?’ clearly ideally there would be none. We should reduce the maximum speed of motorways to 40 because less people would be killed in RTAs so how many deaths would be acceptable for you not to do this? That kind of argument is usually not suitable for setting policy or law.

Wonderfulstuff · 28/03/2024 12:33

I dunno why all the anti trans people are talking about voting Tory or Labour - surely your safe space is Reform UK?

fishfingersandtoes · 28/03/2024 12:33

Completely unreasonable. What do you think the Tory's have done for women?
They've got rid of sure start, driven the NHS into the ground, underfunded schools to a point where or children are being taught by non specialists in schools that are literally falling down and I mean literally (a school local to us is building wooden structures inside dodgy buildings so there's time to get out of the roof falls in). They've brought in Brexit, they fucked us all over while they were having parties during COVID, they have overseen a huge decline in living standards with the CoL crisis.... I could go on!
And you think because they're willing to exclude trans women from things that makes it all ok?
Smh

windowframer · 28/03/2024 12:34

Corbyn: "We'll increase taxes on corporations and the rich to pay for radical change".

Britain: "AAAARRRRGGGGG NOOOOOO!! You can't INCREASE TAXES! That just means everyone who contributes anything to society will emigrate immediately and we'll spiral into a bleak communist dystopia!"

Starmer: "We'll attempt to fix the current problems without radical change and without needing to raise taxes."

Britain: "AAAARRRRGGGGG NOOOOOO!! You can't fix problems like that! WHERE WILL THE MONEY COME FROM???!!!"

😆Society really does get the government it deserves.

AdamRyan · 28/03/2024 12:34

Iwasafool · 28/03/2024 12:31

I was told on a thread that it isn't just about description it's about having to sit on a lavatory that a man has sat on. When you compare that to the other stuff we have to worry about it is clearly a top priority isn't it?

😮😂

ilovesooty · 28/03/2024 12:34

SoreAndTired1 · 28/03/2024 09:34

I didn't know the ability of a parent to do the most basic job of making lunches differed from country to country. Child poverty has nothing to do with whether the school spends money on childrens lunches or the parent makes a sandwich. I also trust the UK has welfare benefits, and food banks, and Social Services if a child looks like being in poverty.

So you're ignorant of the reality of child poverty in the UK and the Tories' part in driving it for the time they've been in office.

Anyone who really cares about the wellbeing of women and children in the UK isn't going to vote for this current government to continue in office.

lifeonapersiancarpet · 28/03/2024 12:34

Not a hope I'd vote Tory.

Soapboxqueen · 28/03/2024 12:35

Jovacknockowitch · 28/03/2024 12:22

You seem a bit confused about Brexit. Both Labour and Tories have significant numbers of Brexit supporters. If you wanted to express an anti-Brexit vote, the Lib Dems has very clearly articulated this as their policy.

And also a significant number of remainers.

I'm not confused.

I know what was said.

Churchview · 28/03/2024 12:35

ifIwerenotanandroid · 28/03/2024 12:23

The sort of answer I'm looking for is a straight one: what will/can Labour do & where's the money coming from?

Previous Labour governments have not been perfect either, btw.

Previous Labour governments might not have been perfect, but the last Labour government was better than this Tory government in terms of making life better for ordinary people. The NHS, the environment, education, childcare, policing etc were better then.

They were especially better for women, which makes the suggestion that we should vote on a single issue unreasonable to me.

Labour have said what their priorities are and how they will pay for it. It's on their website.

What will/can the Conservatives do and where is the money coming from? What have they done for women in this last period in power? What will they do if they get in again? Because if it's more of the same then we are in trouble.

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 12:36

BIossomtoes · 28/03/2024 12:15

The mouthpiece of the Tory party and the UK’s most highly respected political expert disagree with you:

BRITAIN’S foremost polling guru has said there is a “99 per cent chance” of Labour winning the next election.

Prof Sir John Curtice said that it is “clearly” very unlikely the Tories will be in power after the autumn, when Rishi Sunak is widely expected to call a vote.

The political scientist also said he believes Labour will be in a “much stronger position” to form a minority government in the event of a hung parliament, as the Tories “have no friends in the House of Commons”.

It comes as a new survey for The Telegraph has found the Conservatives have sunk to their lowest poll rating since the “bloody aftermath” of Liz Truss’s misfiring mini-budget.

Just 24 per cent of people polled by Savanta said they planned to vote Tory, compared with 44 per cent who backed Labour.

I didn't say that they wouldn't win did I? I said that it won't be the win that they expect.

Underthinker · 28/03/2024 12:36

windowframer · 28/03/2024 12:18

Yeah but only because the woke left forced them to. Or something.

This point has been addressed a few times earlier in the thread, but don't blame you for not seeing it. Or maybe you did see but weren't convinced IDK. But just in case...

Since the GRA was introduced roughly 20 years ago, most of the harms of gender ideology are not enacted by laws but by policies within institutions and businesses. The government (of any colour) quite rightly don't want to be micro managing every policy by these institutions, but should only intervene as a last resort - as with the recent schools guidance.

So it is quite possible to have pro-gender ideology policies flourish under an anti -gender ideology govt (or vice versa).

ifIwerenotanandroid · 28/03/2024 12:37

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 12:23

Oh god....'Transfolk'...😂

It's the 'making... the impact on... women's rights the focus of your vote is... beyond stupid' that gets me.

No, it's voting in my own interests. What if politicians picked any other identifiable group (X) & targetted them with anti-X policies as part of their GE offer? Would you expect all X's to say, "But they're taking 2p off income tax, so I'll vote for them," or, "Nobody should vote on a single issue, so I'll vote for them," or "It would be so selfish of me to only think of myself. Damn the consequences - I'll vote for them!"?

To take a silly example, suppose a political party promised to outlaw football matches in this country & to prosecute anyone caught watching football on TV/online. How many football fans would you expect to vote for them?

thepastinsidethepresent · 28/03/2024 12:38

IClaudine · 28/03/2024 06:34

Is this a wind up?

Everyone else has already said why YABU so I won't bother.

I note you weren't brave enough to put a poll on.

This Tory government is scum, btw. Ange got that right.

Every word of the above.

Over40Overdating · 28/03/2024 12:39

So for the one issue voting advocates - you are happy to vote for a party that ‘knows what a woman is’ whilst also ensuring female children will continue to live in poverty, period poverty being widespread, women, particularly from minority groups being statistically more likely to be failed in maternity & health care, childcare fees cripppling or removing women from the work place, carer burdens increasing on a predominantly female workforce / volunteer group - why?

So your armchair activism can be vindicated? So you can tell yourself you’ve ‘done’ something useful? Never mind that your actions harm far many more women and girls than even the most hyperbolic or theoretical threat from trans women could ever achieve.

The greatest con men ever pulled was convincing women that the real threat is trans women and not your common or garden misogynist man who has a very vested interested in ensuring gender roles get re enforced in the most gender normative ways possible. I know who I fear and it’s not trans women.

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 12:39

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 28/03/2024 12:28

I've seen nothing from Labour that convinces me anything will be better under them, and quite a lot which suggests things will be worse..

They seem equally likely to set up structures that cream off funding for the 1% whilst things crumble - PFI and the expenses scandal (MP housing- where many Labour politicians got rich quick by flipping properties in London using taxpayer funded 'expenses').

No plans to renationalise the railway / water etc. They're even keener on unaccountable arms length control and top down diktat (like MATs) than the Tories. At least with the Tories it's 'market forces' so there's more wriggle room do something different if things are going wrong by going with a different provider (of course this doesn't work for things like railways, which is why they should be renationalised IMO).

Most politicians are out for personal gain and not that interested in the needs of the electorate. Labour openly sneer at people's views on things like immigration, even when founded in a reality of not enough GP appointments / school places etc. They're not willing to debate, they just label anyone who speaks up as racist.

The few politicians that care about normal people are spread across all parties.

Am hoping for a decent independent to vote for but I won't vote Labour - unless Rosie Duffield or a few other decent ones move into my constituency

I feel the same. So few good MPs in any of the parties.

PosyPrettyToes · 28/03/2024 12:39

I’d rather shit in my hands and clap than vote Tory.

And the rights and successes of women have little to do with actual women’s rights in terms of politics but the general state of our economy and society. You can’t pick a party on a single issue without considering the others.

  • The economy - there is still a gender pay gap, and also a higher proportion of women than men in lower paid careers due to career breaks being more common but if the overall economic position improves, our position improves.
  • the NHS - women’s services are some of the poorest funded with the longest waits, yes, but the whole NHS is on its knees. Better funded healthcare overall means our position improves.
  • Women’s safety - if the shitshow that is modern policing was better handled, women would feel safer and our position improves.

and so on. It’s not enough to say “oh the tories are being nice to women now, we have to vote for them” if they’re going to carry on destroying absolutely everything else.

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 12:40

Junothatsagoodidea · 28/03/2024 12:28

I'd vote Labour just because of Angela Rayner alone, quite frankly!

I feel completely the opposite way.

Allthingsdecember · 28/03/2024 12:40

Whether trans women are women is so low down my list of priorities when working out who to vote for, it likely won't factor at all in my decision making at all.

The NHS, social care provisions, COL, children growing up in poverty, proper support for disabled people, education.... there are so many things that matter more than the potential of someone with a penis being in the same changing room as me.

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