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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want every women in England to vote Tory at the GR

1000 replies

Hurrydash · 28/03/2024 02:01

So I don't agree with Angela Rayner's description of the Tories as scum, but I get her drift and if she'd been more tempered in her language I probably would have bought in.

HOWEVER

For me - and actually should be got everyone - the only real issue at the next GE is freedom of speech/women's rights.

I see Labour as the destroyer of these and so must vote against them. The only meaningful way to do this is to vote Tory which I am reluctant but prepared to do.

Is this unreasonable?

Happy to be convinced - for real not just words - if there is evidence Labour (Starmer 1 in 1000 women have a dick) may see the light before the GE.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Annettekurtin · 28/03/2024 10:11

WaitingForMojo · 28/03/2024 10:09

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. But you don’t get to speak for every woman who has experienced rape or DV. There are many of us with those experiences who don’t share your view here.

That’s as may be, but those women who do want single sex spaces are entitled to them without being called names.

TroysMammy · 28/03/2024 10:11

Moonmelodies · 28/03/2024 09:59

In Swansea 10% of gynae patients are waiting over 105 weeks to start their treatment. Under a Labour government - "a blueprint for Labour Britain" according to Mr.Starmer.

I know a Gynae consultant who works in the week from about 9-6, goes to work on the weekend and is also on call for emergencies. I expect the Junior Doctor strikes don't help. I don't know much about them except the dismal wages which is down to Welsh Labour.

Also the OP only mentioned England in the thread title so Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland don't matter to her.

WaitingForMojo · 28/03/2024 10:12

Annettekurtin · 28/03/2024 10:11

That’s as may be, but those women who do want single sex spaces are entitled to them without being called names.

I haven’t called anyone names.

AhNowTed · 28/03/2024 10:13

Annettekurtin · 28/03/2024 10:09

The tories are better than the other parties on this issue. It’s disgraceful that so many of our political class see women’s rights as disposable.

It's just words. Backed up by nothing. Not a single policy to help women.

gettingbackonit23 · 28/03/2024 10:13

SloaneStreetVandal · 28/03/2024 09:55

Self ID is/was not remotely a distraction. As was demonstrated by Bryson's advocate. Self ID would've, without a doubt, broadened the legal definition.

And 'dumb' - ew. The 1970's rang, they want their slurs back.

How does it affect you on a day to day basis though? Because I use public toilets daily and never have encountered anyone male there in all that time. Nor in changing rooms. You hear of the odd cases but they are reported on because they are unusual. Nearly all of the arguments seem to be “well, x could happen”, usually something outlandish. I just don’t understand how this can be deemed more important than cuts to education, housing, healthcare and all the other hugely pressing issues affecting women in this country.

As for prisons, under Tories, conditions in prison are worse than ever. Surely if you care about women in prison you’d care about proper funding and education in prison and programmes to reduce reoffending and drug abuse? Which you won’t get with the Tories.

i didn’t think dumb was 1970s and I wasn’t even born then but I think it’s a good description- both stupid and ignorant.

borntobequiet · 28/03/2024 10:14

YABU.

Annettekurtin · 28/03/2024 10:14

WaitingForMojo · 28/03/2024 10:12

I haven’t called anyone names.

No one said you did. Fact remains that women (including those who are victims of sexual assault) are entitled to same sex spaces and shouldn’t be insulted or called names for requesting them. Or denied care.

Annettekurtin · 28/03/2024 10:15

gettingbackonit23 · 28/03/2024 10:13

How does it affect you on a day to day basis though? Because I use public toilets daily and never have encountered anyone male there in all that time. Nor in changing rooms. You hear of the odd cases but they are reported on because they are unusual. Nearly all of the arguments seem to be “well, x could happen”, usually something outlandish. I just don’t understand how this can be deemed more important than cuts to education, housing, healthcare and all the other hugely pressing issues affecting women in this country.

As for prisons, under Tories, conditions in prison are worse than ever. Surely if you care about women in prison you’d care about proper funding and education in prison and programmes to reduce reoffending and drug abuse? Which you won’t get with the Tories.

i didn’t think dumb was 1970s and I wasn’t even born then but I think it’s a good description- both stupid and ignorant.

Just because something doesn’t yet affect you personally doesn’t mean it’s not important

MrsSkylerWhite · 28/03/2024 10:15

Of course YABU.

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 10:16

I am voting POW if I can - if not I will vote for a good Indie if there is one.

gettingbackonit23 · 28/03/2024 10:16

There has never been a “right” to single sex spaces under the law. It has always been the case that individual service providers can provide them based on biological sex but they can’t be compelled to do it. That has been the case a long time and isn’t affected by self ID. Hardly any trans people have a GRC as all anti discrimination protections apply regardless of if you have one.

Lou7171 · 28/03/2024 10:17

ArabellaScott · 28/03/2024 09:58

Why the need to dehumanise half of the UK population?

Tories don't make up half of the population...

Yalta · 28/03/2024 10:17

gettingbackonit23 · 28/03/2024 09:50

He does know though but what do you expect him to say? Is it really better if he says something that he knows will get him pushed out and you get the party headed up by some unelectable idiot like Lisa Nandy?
Like it or not there’s a whole international framework of transgender rights that the UK has signed up to and can’t opt out of. No matter who gets elected to government.

But how can he possibly be a leader if he is too frightened to speak his mind and direct

existentialpain · 28/03/2024 10:17

Not a chance in hell sorry

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 10:17

ilovesooty · 28/03/2024 02:21

I can't be bothered to respond to such an utterly ridiculous point of view.

Ummmm....

Emotionalsupportviper · 28/03/2024 10:18

WaitingForMojo · 28/03/2024 10:09

I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences. But you don’t get to speak for every woman who has experienced rape or DV. There are many of us with those experiences who don’t share your view here.

I think you've posted the wrong quote.

Pipsquiggle · 28/03/2024 10:18

Emotionalsupportviper · 28/03/2024 10:11

Because it is both symbolic and important in practical terms.

The countries that do best, economically, educationally and in terms of health and social policy are those where women have the most rights.

Why? Probably because women, in evolutionary terms, see the need to take care of the tribe at a "I help you, you help me" level, and also the need tp protect the vulnerable at both ends of the age spectrum. Men, evolutionarily speaking, just see everything as a power grab - "get as much as you can while you can".

And forget "whataboutery" - it is still women who do the bulk of work in the home, care for children, struggle to feed their families, go without when times are tough. Few women walk out on their children - men do it every hour of every day.

Women fought for the right to vote, be educated, have body autonomy, control their own reproduction, get equal pay for the same work as men, have their own sports and spaces - and we are putting women's achievements in these areas back to God-knows-when.

The "toilet issue" is so much more than just being able to pee in safety -and it has repercussions for society at every level.

This was a wonderful country not so long age - now it's fast becoming a violent, misogynistic sh1thole - and the way women are being treated is just a symptom of a much deeper malaise.

@Emotionalsupportviper

Why do you think the Tories are so much better for all that you have mentioned vs other parties?

What have the Tories DONE to make you think they are better than Labour for women's rights?

Highsecurity · 28/03/2024 10:19

The countries that do best, economically, educationally and in terms of health and social policy are those where women have the most rights.

Do you mean countries like the Netherlands where trans people have been able to change their legal sex since 1985 or Sweden where trans people have been able to do so since 1972?

Bollindger · 28/03/2024 10:19

Politics in general is not fit for purpose.
Ever Labour are saying they went AWOL...
Tory infighting has got so bad it is shocking.
Now I do think the papers have caused a lot of this, realising the power they have to create trouble, they seem to revel in this to create story's which then take on their own life.
Look at where is the POW who has now had to disclose her illness.
Just wait till they get their claws into a New Labour Govenment. The copy is already written.
Woman are born not worn. Our girls will realise they have list out as they come of age.
Also anyone remember how quickly David Cameron legalised gay marriage, rightly so, but the Trans became the lobby call, so IF Labour do legalise Trans, just what will Stonehouse do next....

Dweetfidilove · 28/03/2024 10:21

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow I'm almost 600 posts late, so it may already have been said…

Hasn’t all the women stuff you’re accusing the other parties of happened while the Tories have been in power?

Does the Tory party care about black women? The last fiasco said otherwise, so on what basis are you suggesting they are the only party that care about me?

bellinisurge · 28/03/2024 10:21

This mad shit we are dealing with happened because the Tories let it happen. I hate the Tories for that AND the omnishambles of our economy and public services.
I'll be spoiling my paper but if, as I assume, Labour get in, I will from Day One be making noise about self ID/gender ideology. We all must.
Mind you, I remember 1992. Labour could still fuck it up. Especially if the Tories make this an election issue and KS tries his bullshit time wasting nonsense about 99.9% and "more light than heat" - they never bring any light.

anotherside · 28/03/2024 10:22

Tories are polling around 19%. This election is already over and the Tories will do well to win 100 seats: a bit tough to win an election when half the country can’t make ends meet and most under 30s know they’ll never be able to afford their own property.

It’s high time for the British public to unleash a collective tut/passive aggressive sigh at the Tories for 15 years of economic mismanagement and making everything shitter.

The election after this will be the more interesting interesting one: Another term for Sir Flip Flop’s new New Labour? (just like the Tories but with zero sugar!) Or back to Can’t Beat The Real Thing* Tory Party

(*at wrecking public services while ramping up the cost of living)

LakieLady · 28/03/2024 10:23

Pigeon31 · 28/03/2024 07:37

Well I'm now planning to vote LibDem just to annoy OP!

I'm planning to vote LD, as I have for over 30 years, because I live in a Con/LD marginal seat where a Labour vote is a waste of time, thanks to our stupid "first past the post" system.

grennleaves · 28/03/2024 10:24

I think you mixed up Tories and Labour OP (or you are a tory bot ). Labour supports maternity leave, childcare subsidies, women’s equality in wages. Tories are all capitalism wins, market speaks, suck as much blood as possible, wuhuu...

SoreAndTired1 · 28/03/2024 10:25

Highsecurity · 28/03/2024 10:04

Yes they do. All they have to say is they 'identify' as a woman. It is already happening now!

You mean after one recent case where a man, dressed as a man, living as a man, filmed women in toilets was caught and arrested and then claimed he identified as a woman where there was absolutely no evidence at all he identified as a woman, and the police didn’t believe him?

Do you mean this https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1738250/sex-attack-female-toilet-gender-birmingham

That has nothing to do with trans people, no government would have prevented him he was dressed as a man! What he claimed is irrelevant and had no bearing on him being caught and punished.

Self ID is already in. To them, TWAW. And based only on say-so of the male. That, is Self-ID. And it's what Labour supports.

It isn’t legally in. In reality anyone can identify as anything and walk into public spaces in most places in the world. In very tightly controlled environments where there are vulnerable people eg prisons no one can just do that. Labour have said they don’t support self ID. You want to think they do to justify your right wing voting inclinations.

No it's the TRUTH. As long as ANY man says he 'identifies' as a woman (for the 30 minutes or whatever time he wants to be in that space), he...is....in!

Where is this commonly happening? Is this a daily problem blighting the lives of lots of women? Who? Where?

They do (Isla Bryson) and will.

Bryson is in Scotland and in a male prison.

It shouldn't be up to any sporting organisation, it should be a blanket rule, made by the government.

It usually is up to sporting organisations to make rules relevant to each sport. You could have a blanket rule but some sports do want to have mixed elements if it’s safe to do so. More sporting bodies are bringing in policies based on birth sex all over the world and will continue to do so. (I hope female sports are protected. By and large they are. I still wouldn’t vote conservative).

We shouldn't have to police them. We never did have to. But while it is nominally not socially acceptable or just any men to walk into them, the fact is that now we cannot call any obvious male out, because if we do, we are called 'transphobic'. There used to be a time that if a male entered, granny could hit him with her walking stick or women could shout at him and create a noise and he'd flee. Those days are long gone. In fact, there was a case at a swimming centre where an 80 year old great grand mother called out a male in the female change rooms. Guess what? She was banned from swimming there. That's right. She was. The ability to call out men in female spaces is looonnnggg gone. It is socially unacceptable to call out men in womens spaces now.

No and we never will police them. ‘Any man’ can still be called out and be removed from these spaces. The occasional trans woman minding their own business in a toilet or changing room, and it is still rare is hardly a major election issue compared to the destruction and corruption the Tories have wrought. There have been transitioned people in toilets for decades under all governments. There will always be some.

They can but unfortunately too many/most don't choose that. There needs to be a law passed that says rape and sexual assault groups MUST (not can, must) provide single sex only spaces and care if asked.

Many do provide single sex spaces. Many refuges are now self contained units with their own bathrooms/ kitchens. It’s up to service providers to decide themselves how to meet the needs of their service users and they are very experienced at doing this. Most have said the occasional (again rare) trans woman isn’t a problem. The law is already passed that allows single birth sex provision. These services have been doing this a long time and they have been clear that this isn’t as major a problem as you seem to want it to be.

That has nothing to do with trans people, no government would have prevented him he was dressed as a man! What he claimed is irrelevant and had no bearing on him being caught and punished.

You're missing the point. Any male who says he is transwoman IS transwoman. They can't be questioned. And, he was emboldened to enter because he knew all he had to do was claim to be transwoman.

It isn’t legally in. In reality anyone can identify as anything and walk into public spaces in most places in the world. In very tightly controlled environments where there are vulnerable people eg prisons no one can just do that. Labour have said they don’t support self ID. You want to think they do to justify your right wing voting inclinations.

When women are PUNISHED for calling a man out, that is self-ID. Whether you want to admit it or not. When Labour say TWAW, they are saying they support self ID. Pure, plain and simple. And like most feminists, I am left wing. Interesting though you feel the need to assume I am a right wing voter.

Where is this commonly happening?

Everywhere. In many countries.

Is this a daily problem blighting the lives of lots of women? Who? Where?

Yes, it is, the risk of men in our spaces is a daily risk. It's a risk I, as a rape survivor, weigh up every single day. As do Domestic Violence survivors. We think about it every.single.day.

Bryson is in Scotland and in a male prison.

He was originally in a female prison (and it doesn't matter that he was 'segregated').

‘Any man’ can still be called out and be removed from these spaces.

WRONG! See the swimming centre example, also Planet Fitness, etc etc.

The occasional trans woman minding their own business in a toilet or changing room

Transwomen are MEN. 92% of them retain their penis and testicles. They are men, with cock and balls... only in a dress, instead of a suit and tie. Minding their business or not, they are still men accessing womens spaces. And, as you prove, we cannot all them out or remove them.

There have been transitioned people in toilets for decades under all governments. There will always be some.

No there haven't been. Because almost none of them actually transition and they always stand out, and we women could back then, call them out. And regardless, even if they wre there 'for decades' (which is a lie), that doesn't make it right. The 'they were always there' is not the defensive supporting argument or justification you think it is.

Most have said the occasional (again rare) trans woman isn’t a problem.

I can assure you it IS a problem to the RAPE VICTIM or BATTERED WOMAN who comes across them, even if the ingratiating person that runs the place says it isn't. There have been 4 different rapes by transwomen in 4 (four) separate battered womens hostels in Canada (yes I know, not UK but transwomen have dangerously higher patterns of sexually offending universally) alone. How many would be enough for you? Give us a number where you would think excluding these men are justified.

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