Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Dear God don't encourage him!

I think OP you have created a knotty and confusing discussion here by misappropriation of a term with a specific meaning to apply it to two very straightforward opinions you want to get across. The first being your view that women are nasty people who do a lot of bad things. The second being that feminism is a bad thing. If you want to propose those opinions for debate, then it would be a lot easier and less disingenuous just to say so.

😂😂😂

I agree that was previously the point of feminism

But we don't have a choice now, feminism failed us on that

We are forced to work now - women who would prefer to stay at home cannot survive in society alone.

If we said we would prefer to stay at home we are routinely criticised & warned we are leaving themselves vulnerable & will be an oppressed slave, or on the flip side seen as lazy

What kind of modern mother will now encourage her girls that if they have kids to stay at home & raise them?

We encourage little girls to have careers & think carefully about whether motherhood is right for them now

It's worrying how the trope of the empowered childfree woman is a woman with a high powered career, fancy home & designer wardrobe

The reality if you become stuck a dead end job, average home on the wrong side of town & feeling frumpy is not as glamorous as I'd previously envisioned..

But I digress, this thread has really evolved from what I originally intended & didn't mean to speak so personally on such subjects

I said there is a culture of women behaving badly but my points were mostly how that negatively impacts other women

So yes I am saying there is a culture of women being nasty towards each other but also that women are victims of this culture too

The conversation evolved, it wasn't intentional but threads can sometimes derail

Happy to get back on the original topic

And how do you see this apparant culture being related to societal ideas of femininity, so being 'toxic femininity' as oppose to merely being some women doing things that aren't very nice?

Could you not have tried harder and been 6 foot? FFS.

It's difficult. I would love to discuss this and I have plenty to say-but the OP's name suggests that she isn't posting in good faith. Not quite sure what her motivation is-but I suspect she doesn't have women's best interests at heart.

My mum is in her 60s & talks about going for lunch with "the girls" so yes, women can still be called girls

It's fine for men as they don't have to deal with the impact of accidental pregnancy though

Being ghosted by someone you slept with emotionally hurts us in a way that it doesn't hurt men as much

Because men can see us as the notch on the bedpost

But women are more biologically inclined to feel a sense of connection after sex

Of course you don't have to take the advice, but if the social messaging is so strong in favour of focusing on career & delaying motherhood till 30s then that will have an impact on young women's decision making

To claim that despite all this social messaging promoting one way to live as being the more sensible option, but that we are free to buck all social trends & make up our own minds to go against what society says is best is being naive

If a Mum teaches daughter that it's best to focus on career & delay motherhood & they go against this advice, is this not disappointing your Mum? Who wants to do that?

Especially not if your friends, media, movies etc are all promoting being a career woman & having a bunch of cats instead of kids as being the ideal choice

It takes a very strong, independent young woman to question all of that messaging

Your original topic was…that because men and women are equal (they’re not), toxic femininity must exist (you haven’t been able to define what you mean by toxic femininity), and that women behave badly (obviously women behave badly given that we are in fact people).

i agree with @5128gap that your 2 main points are a) women are dreadful and b) feminism is awful. If you’d said that we would at least have been able to discuss whether that is true and why you think so, rather than thoroughly confusing everything by blethering on about breastfeeding being feminine (what about cows then, are they being feminine when they breastfeed? And masculine when they get cross and trample people? No, because animals don’t have gender).

for someone who claims to be a woman in their forties from Australia, you have spent far too much time listening to the tropes and talking points of men in their twenties from America.

There is a culture of people behaving badly since time innemoriam. As you well know. Why you feel that women's poor behaviour is any more worthy of pointing out than men's vastly more common bad (/murderous) behaviour is beyond me.

I am posting in "good faith"

Really dislike that lefty term

I swear 10 years ago you didn't hear people whinge about "good faith" arguments & now you hear this term all the bloody time

You either just engaged in the discussion, or opted out

Even if I was taking the piss, would it even matter?

Ever noticed how the men who complain about women liking tall men are absolute whiny little nothings with no skills or warmth to speak of? Short men who actually have something to offer, kindness, intelligence, care, hard work, family love, laughter…they never complain about this so called height nazism. Funny that. It’s nearly as though it’s not actually about height.

Where did I say it was more worthy?

Discussion of toxic masculinity has just been done to death

Can we not discuss the flip side for once?

But plenty of women still do choose to settle down, have children and be SAHMs. There are many reasons why others choose to have children and work. Usually because it is financially necessary (which has nothing to do with feminism). Others want to work because being at home doesn't interest them.

The thing that really gets pushed on women is to make sure that they are financially secure no matter what choice they make because just look at how many single mothers are struggling out there. How can you view that advice as toxic or harmful.

Delaying having children makes sense when it isn't your only priority in life. And never having children is a legitimate choice for people who don't want children. What feminism does is tell them that they aren't failures by not having children.

So true! My brother is a bit of a short arse like myself, and his husband is quite tall. It's almost like it doesn't matter cos they love and fancy each other, and neither of them have a complex about height!

But WHAT has this got to do with toxic femininity?

i agree that sex with men can be on the whole pretty dangerous for women, and we bear the consequences. I think liberal third wave feminism does women a disservice by trying to disguise that.

but are you saying that encouraging women to have lots of male sexual partners is toxic femininity? So you are claiming promiscuity is socially seen as a feminine trait?

can you at least answer one question: how do you define masculinity and femininity? I don’t mean how are they characterised, I mean what do the words mean?

Stop asking difficult questions FFS 😂

My boyfriend is 5"2 like me but broad so he is OK with it as he is still "big" in a sense

But I can see why men take offence to this, because it's not something a guy can change (unless he goes for that leg breaking opp in Russia or wears secret platforms like Tom Cruise is rumoured to do)

I would be hurt if someone told me I was too chubby for them to date or that they only liked blondes, but at least I could change that

I have always called out other women for saying they want a 6 foot tall guy, because it's something we've heard is a good thing

Most of us if we are average height can't tell a 5'10 guy from a 6 foot guy

& then you meet a cute 5" something guy & your care for the 6 foot goes out the window, because like you say it doesn't matter in real life unless you are a very tall woman

I've got 5 years on you and I never hear my friends talking about men in feet and inches.

Do you hang out in 1950s Australia often?

You seem to lack self esteem tbh. Why would you care if someone said they only liked blondes? And you seem to be a bit hung up on height. Dump these perceived requirements from random guys and be happy with yourself. Shoulders back, head up tits out and strut like a queen. And as I say, I'm a total midget, but I'm way past caring.

Then perhaps it is a younger thing, as I’ve heard many women talk about 6 foot guys

or wanting a tall man if they don’t put a number on it

tall dark & handsome must be a phrase you’ve heard of before

Masculinity is the characteristics / traits / behaviours associated with men

Femininity is the same but for women

Those are pretty standard definitions aren’t they?

Wasn't aware they were open to interpretation

Must be getting a bit long in the tooth

"lefty"🤣 where

Long in the tooth or detached from reality!