Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

goes back to slavishly changing nappies, cleaning and cooking in advance of doing myself up, and preparing my husband's after work drink, obviously.

My understanding of toxic masculinity/femininity is the theory that society places expectations on individuals due to their sex that lead to behaviour that is harmful. For example, the belief men should be big strong providers resulting in weak, poor men being seen as inferior and men in general acting out in aggressive ways to establish their place in the hierarchy. Or the belief women should be beautiful leading to some women engaging in harmful procedures (though not encouraging others), dieting excessively, etc.
Your examples are not 'toxic femininity' they are merely examples you may have observed of some women behaving in ways you disliked. There's very little if anything there to link any of the behaviour you described to the societal expectations upon women. Quite the reverse in some cases, such as the wine drinking trope. There is no pressure from the patriarchal society for women to consume alcohol, in fact its still judged. The possible exception may be the other woman trope, if we assume all OW are motivated by proving how attractive they are, and stealing the 'best' men, which I personally think is nonsense.

I don’t know if I’m confused or if you are.

What are you talking about now - toxic femininity or ‘masculine’ women? I presume that’s where you’re now heading with this tripe.

I’m up in the middle of the night and might write more tomorrow, but I definitely think there’s such a thing as toxic femininity. I agree about the breastfeeding thing. Men don’t give a damn if some random woman they don’t know feeds her kids with formula, whereas a non-negligible number of women will disparage women who don’t breastfeed.

More things I think of as toxic femininity:

Picking on your husband for doing something for your kids that was perfectly fine, but not how you would do it. Example: husband is supposed to get kids dressed in the morning, and wife criticizes him for letting the kids wear clothes that don’t “go together.”

Insulting the intelligence of women who question aspects of the feminist movement. Bonus for insisting they’re brainwashed by men.

Pitting working mothers and SAHM against each other, or claiming the category you fall into is the superior one.

Talking frequently about other women’s weight and what they’re eating, or talking about your own weight as a stealth way to criticize someone else’s.

Omg women are not morphing into men, ya balloon animal.

Women are just not being prevented from doing those things anymore. Women of the past were not "real women". They were women who were oppressed by a patriarchal society to suit men.

Now, they've been given freedom to achieve the things previously denied them. And they are.

But muppets are trying to drag them down because 1. It makes men's lives harder because they have to do more, and 2. Women with different ambitions feel like they are being judged for wanting different things.

Why would this happen? You have a very skewed view of male/female friendships if you assume that social situations split into sex based groups. Why are you assuming I can only have a 'proper chat' with women?

Have you never encountered women who not just form friendship groups (nothing wrong with that, obviously), but also actively exclude others?

Yes it is toxic indeed

• Focusing on career - Many women now the high earner & find in a divorce that they have to pay maintenance to a man or don't get the primary custody they assumed as the male partner was the primary caregiver
• Celebrating promiscuity - Increased chances of falling victim of toxic relationships & becoming jaded towards relationships
• Delaying parenthood - Misplaced assumptions that other options like IVF, donor, surrogacy are achievable to the average person & an easy option
• Opting out of motherhood - Risk of regret

I myself identify with all of these things & have to live with the impact of my decisions, so you can call me a self hating woman if you want

Prefer to see it as reflection & growth though...

Those things are the complete opposite of femininity! 😭

Opting out of motherhood and also breastfeeding as toxic femininity. Mate you should hang out on the feminist board you might learn how to string a cohesive argument together.

Riiight. Focus on career is a really terrible thing. The rest are your own choices, in fact they all are. Nobody's forcing you to do any of that.

To answer your question though, personally I do think TF exists. I see it all the time on here from the women who have absorbed the message that women's role is that of protector and facilitator of men, and that a woman's worth is linked to how well men treat her. The women who can't allow a conversation about male bad behaviour without NAMALTing or telling us that men treat them well because they 'pick wisely'. The women who 'get on so much better with men', who reject and malign their own sex as inferior (nasty, vacuous, boring) in favour of the superior males. Who accuse other women of being jealous of their looks or their husband as their first response to any percieved sleight.
All of these behaviours can be linked to a toxic view of femininity which sees it as synonymous with being whatever serves men best.

No, someone said that men unfairly expect their female partner to be friends with the other women in a social group simply because they are also women

I was saying that it's normal for people to expect their partner to get along with their friends in social situations & that it's common for women to also want their male partner to be friends with the males in their social group

& used that hypothetical as an example where a woman might expect her partner to go hang with the guys while she hangs with her GFs

Of course social groups don't always split into sexes

But if your mate's husband was hanging around with the girls while the guys were doing their thing in the other room, I would hazard a guess that the other women might be wishing he'd go hang with the guys at that point in the evening & leave the women be

Is your argument actually that extreme feminISM is toxic and harmful to women? Is that what all this is about? Nothing to do with femininity.

Why though? It's such a stupid assumption. Adults (and even children) will hang out with who they want to hang out with. For various reasons. You make no sense.

Celebration of promiscuity & promoting motherhood as a burden & an option to be cautious of is peak feminism though

Nobody forced me & I have to live with my decisions

But to deny the strong influence of these messages to young women today is being naive

If I was in my early 20s & said I wanted to marry my current boyfriend & be a mother now, would I not be advised it would be better to focus on my career, date around & delay motherhood until at least my 30s?

Riiiiight so now you say that women are morphing into men (?!) and that this is an example of toxic femininity because it’s not good that women are more masculine….

i also don’t identify at all with your social group depictions of “the guys” and “the girls” and think you might have confused an American sitcom with real life

Celebration of promiscuity is peak feminism??????!!!!

now you’re just making word salad

I think you need to do some reading on toxic femininity as your continued anti-feminist comments suggest you have an incomplete understanding of what it is and what effects it has.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-femininity-5222736

For one thing, if you were 20, you'd be long past being a 'girl'. As for 'celebrating promiscuity ', why the hell not? As long as it's safe and consensual, what's the issue? Fine for men, after all. As for marrying in your 20s, you may well be advised against marriage for a while. You don't have to take that advice.

Are you suggesting these things are further examples of TF? Because they're the opposite. All of those are examples of women going against the traditional roles and expectations upon women, and in your case, finding that disadvantageous. They are examples of women trying to move outside the box society prefers them to occupy (their femininity) and finding that the way our society still works means there are barriers and traps along the way that for some may lead them to believe they'd be better off jumping back in.

If so - and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that - you might be interested in Mary Harrington's recent book, Feminism Against Progress. She makes many thought-provoking points exploring this kind of argument.

I think we're getting somewhere now. The OP is blaming feminism for the change in expectations from society, which had resulted in her possibly not being able to have children now.

OP, feminism had always been about giving women choice. Informed choice. It doesn't force anyone to choose a certain path. Clearly, you regret the path you have chosen, and I'm sorry for that, but it was still a path you chose freely. The ability to make that choice isn't toxic, even if it was the wrong one for you.

(This still has nothing to do with toxic femininity.)

Your opening statement is not true and so renders your entire post pointless.

"Slut shaming" is seen as wrong in today's society though

To comment on the amount of men a woman decides to sleep with is seen as regressive & mysogynistic

I'm just saying that I personally as a woman have been harmed by my past choices & if I could rewind & not sleep with the majority of those men I would

I think sleeping around is one of those things that seems like fun at the time, but later on did feel that a lot of those experiences left a mark, or some damage to me emotionally

& that my best, healthiest relationships were from before I became jaded from so many sexual experiences

But if you'd told me this in my 30s I would have scoffed at you too so I don't blame you for criticising me for it

I am not saying women should only sleep with one man ever, but that it would be wiser to advise young women to be selective & not to sleep with a man who doesn't care about you & avoid one night stands etc

The risk of being in multiple toxic relationships, getting an STD, having an unwanted pregnancy & feeling pressure to abort is linked to sleeping around

Those things don't empower us, even though feminism would lead us to believe that sexual liberation is empowering