Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Of course I don’t care if someone prefers blondes or skinny girls in general

It was just an example that weight & hair colour are changeable if you were inclined to want to change them

if I did care I would stop dying my hair black & stock up on bleach I guess

I mean I guess it might sting briefly if say I had a crush on someone & they told me I wasn’t their type due to my appearance, but would get over it

Being rejected isn’t exactly a pleasant experience for anyone really, is it?

It's a phrase. So is we didn't come here to fuck spiders. I don't think anyone turns up to actual fuck spiders.

I mean this kindly but maybe hang out with some nicer people. Who dont talk in reductive stereotypes and place meaning on baking and dish washers that isn't needed. Maybe chat with some feminist who are interested in the liberation of women rather than neo liberalism.

But that's just life! We've all been rejected at some stage for whatever reason. You just lick your wounds and get on with it!

How would I as a women choose this though?

it would have to be choosing wisely & picking a well off partner, right?

& that partner would need to support the concept of a stay at home mother too, wouldn’t he?

How common is that for men when they are also taught now that women wanting to not work is the sign of a “gold digger”

If your 20 something son came home & said he wants to marry his GF and she doesn’t want to work, she wants to stay at home & raise children would he be encouraged to go for it?

or would he be advised that he should look for a GF who is more career focused & can be his equal? Would they warn him that she may be “trapping” him? Might they warn him not to marry her?

to suggest young women today can still choose to be a SAHM like it is easy to achieve is being naive

perhaps in religious circles yes but if you don’t have a religious background & don’t marry into wealth that is going to be tricky isn’t it?

Exactly that is why I said any hurt would be brief

Tall dark & handsome is a description

Not coming here to “fuck spiders” is an expression

Are you suggesting when someone is described as tall dark & handsome that you have no idea they are describing a bloke?

you can’t really be serious

Finances are the barrier. Not feminism. The cost of living is so much more than it was 60 years ago when one wage could support a family. So no, I wouldn't encourage my 20-year-old to get married and start a family right now because they can't afford to do that.

And there is nothing wrong with men not wanting to be the sole breadwinners either. Men are also allowed to choose partners who are compatible with their wants and needs. A woman who wants to be a SAHM needs to find a man who wants a SAHW.

That's a real mélange of issues right there.

No what I mean is I don't take someone saying they want to meet someone tall dark and handsome as literal and also an attack on masculinity. But I really have never had had a a friend talk about her type or say they want a man based on what he looks like.

As I said maybe consider hanging out with other people. Or read some better stuff Hags by Victoria Smith is good.

I'm a stay at home mum by the way. It's been brilliant. Hard and brilliant. I'm going to return the work force soon to help fund my children's competitive sports. If money wasn't quite so tight I would stay at home longer. At one point I regularly flew internationally for work.

but you said if we wanted to be a SAHM we can just choose this

now you’re saying it’s difficult because of cost of living & how much harder it is to live off one income

& then you must factor in finding a guy who is up for supporting you to be a SAHM indefinitely

Where is the choice? Or is it more luck in life that would mean you get to choose this option now?

I guess if you were born into wealth, parents tragically died & left you an inheritance or you invested your savings wisely in your 20s giving you a nest egg of a million dollars or so then yes, you could choose this for herself

not likely though is it

I never said describing or wanting someone as tall dark & handsome is an attack on masculinity

it was just in reference to you saying that you have never heard a woman express a preference for a tall man

do you consider yourself lucky to be a SAHM in today’s society?

do you know any other women who might have liked to do that too but didn’t have the choice?

or do you see yourself as smart to have set your life up in the way you wanted so you could be a SAHM & the other women were silly & chose poorly?

would you say you are grateful to your partner for his part in helping to facilitate you being a SAHM or was that just his duty?

I do hear about these traits and see them in characters on TV, films etc. but I can safely say I've never known any grown women to act that way in any shape or form. Quite the opposite.

I guess I wouldn't have much in common with them and they wouldn't like me so it's for the best.

“Associated with”. What does that mean?? I don’t think you’ve really thought about this properly.

masculinity and femininity describes the system of gender I.e. the proscribed behaviours of each sex. This is enforced by social approval and reward for conforming, combined with social punishment for diverging.

you appear to be pro femininity and anti masculinity, ie you take exception to the feminist efforts to dismantle the oppression of femininity, but you object to societal pressure on men to behave a certain way. This is a strange combination as normally conservatives are pro gender normativity, and radicals are anti. But I’ve only seen your combo in twenty something incels on the internet - who generally believe that women should be more feminine, but that any pressure on men to be masculine is the cause of suicide.

for info: when women engage in broadcasting that they like tall, strong, fit men? This is women performing femininity in a way that upholds patriarchal masculinity. It’s pro-masculinity feminine signalling ie pro-gender. So if you think that is toxic femininity….well I have no idea what that means because your position is incoherent.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the question regarding female sexual freedom, OP. In what sense has it gone too far? And do you think women should inherently have less sexual freedom than men?

How is any of that any of your business?

Well, I chose by making sure I was with a man who shared my ideas then waiting to have children until we were in a position to raise them the way we wanted to. Thank you feminism.

Um even in the past, women still needed to find a husband. They weren't just given one when they clicked their fingers. You don't just say "I want to be a SAHM" any more than you say "I want a career" and have it happen. You need to put in some effort.

Because we're we're all promiscuous sluts silly!

Are you maybe an extra terrestrial? These are not questions that I would expect from someone who had lived on earth in the 20th and 21st centuries.

@DanielGault "Because we're we're all promiscuous sluts silly!"

And we don't put out for the poor incels.

Also sorry the more I read back the more baffled I am.

you only need to read some threads on mumsnet to see that there is a sizeable number of men who effectively force the mother of their children to be a SAHM because they like having a domestic skivvy AND enjoy the financial power. THAT is why a feminist position encourages women to have access to their own money.

you seem to have created a world where women are all secretly yearning to live in the kitchen, surrounded by babies, smiling sweetly at their husbands coming home from work, but are prevented from
living this idyll because of feminists wagging their fingers and sneering.

this world, I am afraid to tell you, only exists in the minds of anti feminist trolls on social media. If it walks like a duck…

I'm really struggling to grasp your hypothesis here OP. I feel like you've thrown the whole of the pick n mix sweet counter at us and asked us to conclude from that that that the nachos are soggy and the hot dogs are cold.
It would help me if you made one clear criticism of women or feminism at a time so we could respond in a focused way.

A description created by a male writer. It has been argued, debated, and eyerolled the way men have written themselves and female characters.

Many descriptions that push the supposed masculine traits of men and feminine traits of women were created by men. Some men wrote such things and they themselves didn’t match the criteria. There is a long history of historical figures who embellished on their own attributes and wanted to be seen a certain way.

Men who take in such comments along with a man needing to be rich and be/have xyz hear them from a small group of women and decide that ALL women want that even when actual stats show that the percentage of men that meet such criteria is a very small percentage of the male population and even further, many men who don’t meet that criteria are married, have been in relationships, etc.

Even the minority of women who do say this, often couple or marry someone who is not 6ft tall.

A woman also saying tall, could easily mean taller than her. The average height of a woman globally is 5’3 and a man 5’7.

What an odd bunch of questions.

I never planned to be a stay at home mum. It it is what felt right once my DS1 arrived. I don’t think anyone is silly for not being a SAHM or for being a working mum. Both my partner and I are extremely grateful for the work the other does. Neither of us could have our life as it is without the other. We are a partnership.

I guess the thing i feel most lucky about is the amount of wonderful people in my life. Some real high flying go getters and some just getting by. But funny, caring, interesting, challenging, thoughtful, some with children, some without.

My female friendships aren’t marked by the stereotypes or awful behaviour you keep mentioning as female.

No! You are doing femininity wrong! You should have been sold off to a distant cousin at the age of 15 and rejoiced because his syphilis was only mild and he was happy eating chicken three nights a week!!!