Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

I don't claim to be an expert on it

Just feel it exists & is worthy of discussion as a concept

& that if toxic masculinity exists that it stand to reason that women also experience toxic messages & exhibit toxic behaviour

But perhaps like feminism, what it means could be subjective & dependent entirely to one's "lived experience"

Came here to say this. There is definitely toxic femininity, it just presents itself differently to toxic masculinity

Having studied the difference in men and women's writing, I have to agree

Thank you, this is what I was trying to say

Yes this - or “real men need big muscles”.

I manage an all male team and sometimes go out of my way to remind that there is more than one way of being a man. And it can be manly to be gentle, thoughtful, kind and caring.

Toxic femininity would surely be “all women must wear make up” or dress in a particular way/have long hair etc.

Well this falls down quite quickly because a lot of men start balding in their 30s 😄 but they still have wives/girlfriends and are desired. Same with chubby men.

And unfortunately, as mumsnet posts often show - there ARE a lot of irresponsible/bad men who are married or in long term partnerships.

I wouldn’t say there is a shared ideal, no. That’s my point. I can’t speak for all straight women because there isn’t one specific image. Obviously a lot of women value kindness, a good sense of humour, commitment etc but the details vary. I don’t believe you can simplify it to that extent of ‘this is what women want’.

Took you a while didn't it? And even then someone else had to articulate it for you. Something rotten in the state of Denmark....

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour. Has some merit.
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic Sounds more like emotional instability and lack of good communication skills.
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman Dark maybe, toxic -nah. Requires more thought than just reducing to toxic.
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke") Judgmental and possibly mean, yes (sometimes correct), toxic feminine trait - no.
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas Radical, yes - toxic femininity, no.
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques) Trying to look your best (arguably) is not toxic. Friendships- maybe think the ‘daggy’ shares nothing in common with them or is indicative of different values. If they are hurtful to the ‘saggy’ that is toxic.
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait Probably just loves wine or is an alcoholic, but not a toxic feminine trait.

I thought toxic femininity was conforming to misogyny in a manner that requires you to suppress your needs or alter them to satisfy the traditional male/female dynamic.

No it is not what you were trying to say. These posters are describing how femininity oppresses women.. you are saying that women are mean, it is hard to be a man because women won’t shag you if you’re a lazy fat bastard, that breastfeeding is feminine (?!) and that women and men are equal. AND that a dishwasher uses more water than washing up in the sink. All in all, bit of a fail.

Restrained use of exclamations & paragraphs makes me a man now, apparently

Well, I guess if modern feminism promotes women living like men & doing everything a man can do

Then I have inadvertently reached peak feminism without even trying, apparently

When scientific papers are written & academic research is presented, you must surely be able to tell at a glance if it was a male or female scientist/academic who wrote it

Quite the powers of perception there

Surprised nobody has even bothered to question if I have autism yet....

So relatable! Literally cannot describe how often I have to deal with this exact scenario. Bored of my male neighbours graciously accepting my baked goods

Women living like men…what does that mean?

"I don't claim to be an expert on it

Just feel it exists & is worthy of discussion as a concept."

Not good enough, @JordanPeterson. How can we discuss toxic femininity as a concept if you can't even define what you mean by the phrase?

With the right method you absolutely do use less water !

Also running it half empty in a household of two would also waste water

I know I literally cannot believe they just accept my obvious pastiche of a desperate housewives episode and eat the bloody muffins!

Indeed!?!

Do us a favour and climb out of your own hole will ya? Man or woman. Bleedin' dose.

Yes it does stand to reason that women exhibit "toxic behaviour" considering that they are subjected to the toxicity of a patriarchal social order their entire lives.

Thankfully smart people have been noticing this and discussing if for centuries.

They have even come up with a handy moniker for it. It's called internalised misogyny. Because hierarchy.

So, to summarise, toxic femininity is women being toxic.

Feminists want to live like men.

All women want 6ft men with jobs.

Lesbians don't count as part of "all women".

And breastfeeding is toxic or something. (I missed the point of the breastfeeding part.)

I didn't spend 6 hours slaving over a friendly lemon drizzle cake to not get laid, FFS!

Examples include strong focus on career, celebrating promiscuity, delaying or opting out of parenthood

These used to be things more attributable to men, but are now more the norm for western women today

Have you not seen how us women are morphing more into men & have taken on what were traditionally the behaviours of men & becoming more masculine in our endeavours/attitudes to life?

This HAS to be a joke 🤣

Stop saying us women and we. You are not a bloody woman. Now dfod.

🤣🤣🤣

• Examples include strong focus on career, celebrating promiscuity, delaying or opting out of parenthood

These used to be things more attributable to men, but are now more the norm for western women today

Have you not seen how us women are morphing more into men & have taken on what were traditionally the behaviours of men & becoming more masculine in our endeavours/attitudes to life?*

You just proved my original point. That post is a prime example of toxic femininity.