Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Where do you think the catchphrase originated from?

Oh God, the "misgendering" continues

Yes when my points can't be argued, just "misgender" me as a man in a last ditch attempt to disregard my points

The silly thing is even if I was a guy, it wouldn't make my points untrue, would it?

If someone who is a regular user would like to PM me I will give you my real name & add you on FB & will prove my identity

I bet I even if I do that, they'll just say "Well she looks like a woman but I bet she was still born a man!"

PM away, don't care about my online anonymity

Ahh yes because using flowery, insipid phrases like "Be kind!" is something that you hear guys say to us all the time

Women don't say this to other women or perpetuate this expectation of women ever, do we

Only men tell us to "Be kind" apparently

Must be more men on Mumsnet than I thought...

Women are taught to be kind from a very early age, it’s ingrained in our upbringing. That is something that comes from an expectation by men of the way women should behave.

"Was just posing the concept of breastfeeding pressure as an example of toxic femininity, as it's women who have created that social pressure & this pressure to breastfeed harms women who cannot breastfeed"

This is utterly nonsense. If you are interested in this area I suggest The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer. The state of breastfeeding and pressures is mainly based on capitalism rather than toxicity femininity. You could follow it up with some of the work of Dr Julie Smith a brilly economist that has done a bunch of study into gender and inequalities mainly focused on Australia too.

Yes absolutely do believe promiscuity harms men too & they should practice more selectivity & restraint, just like women

I think it harms them in different ways, but it's bad for both sexes

Sex without emotional intimacy or some kind of relationship is not great for any of us long term

We could look at the HIV/AIDS outbreaks in the 80s, many men died

Men have to deal with the outcomes of accidental pregnancies & not having the choice whether to become fathers in that situation or not - being linked to a random one night stand is not something most mothers would envision for their sons as a great outcome in life

The emotional impact of promiscuity can lead to men feeling numb towards women & viewing us as nothing but a number, just something you "do" on the weekend, so we become objects, meaning men are less likely to enter into committed, loving relationships

Or on the flip side, many men are sensitive souls & also emotionally attach after sex like we do - being ghosted after having sex can hurt them too, like it hurts us

Being highly promiscuous is often linked to other harmful behaviours, like excessive drinking, drug use etc - the sex becomes like a drug essentially. Yes that goes for women too , but the culture of the guys getting on the drink or cocaine & sleeping around is more associated with "boys nights" isn't it?

To pretend that it's allfine for men & not OK for women is not true

& Feminists today would have us believe that it's fine for men to do it, so we should do it too & feel fine as well

But the flaw in this mindset is that it's not actually fine for men at all, so we should not seek to imitate this behaviour or celebrate it for either sex

A man who is popular with the ladies but has the ability to show restraint, be selective & not sleep around is seen as a good quality, is it not?

"Boys will be boys" can be used in relation to a variety of situations, not just sex Eg: if boys are roughhousing & wrestling each other, you might say "ahh boys will be boys"

But even if it's used in relation to sex, that is just an example of a toxic message that ultimately harms men

Instead of referring me to reading feminist literature

Why don't you just put your point across here

I couldn't think of anything worse than reading the academic led drivel from a Gender Studies major

Please explain how breastfeeding pressure is due to "capitalism"

When breastfeeding is free, as opposed to man made formula that costs money & makes companies rich?

But if little girls are taught to "Be Kind" from a young age

& Feminists will be the first to say that it's women doing the lionshare of childrearing

Who is teaching the little girls that lesson to "Be Kind" ?

I did include the main thrust of the book.

Neither Palmer or Dr Smith are gender studies majors.

Honestly you just really rude.

But that’s the point, it’s instilled in to women to be this way, we are conditioned from an early age to believe this and this is passed down through generations but the force behind that comes from the patriarchy because men have long believed women should be meek and kind and know their place.

‘& Feminists today would have us believe that it's fine for men to do it, so we should do it too & feel fine as well’
I mean this is just utter bollocks.

I highly doubt that any negative feelings women have following a ONS are due to having developed a deep emotional attachment to a man they met the night before. If 'as a woman' you felt shame/self disgust after engaging in casual sex, you could maybe consider why that is. You appear to be concluding that it's a natural feeling for 'us women' which we could avoid if 'toxic femininity' hadn't come and made us to do such things. How about we flip that, and apply some critical thinking? We may then conclude there is no rational reason for shame if two adults have engaged in consensual sex. And the fact that women may feel it is due to the internalisation of messaging that tells us 'decent women' don't engage in sex purely for pleasure and without love and commitment, but reserve our bodies for the enjoyment of one man, and any women who deviates from that has failed to meet the required standards. Does that make any sense? Because if you can understand that, you're on the cusp of understanding what's really meant by toxic femininity.

I'm 56. I've had ONS. Thoroughly enjoyed by both parties, no attachments, no self loathing. Ended up getting married and doing the family thing. You do not speak for anyone other than yourself.

You state a lot of things as if they are indisputable truths, so here it comes: links to actual research to back that up, or it's all just about you and therefore meaningless.

Sexual liberation works both ways. I’m asexual, never had sex, never want to have sex. My mum told me this wasn’t really an option when she was younger, the idea of not having a husband or children was almost unheard of outside of nuns and spinsters.

I am a feminist because I believe in choice for women to live how they see fit. Though I am also pragmatic enough to know that choice is somewhat of an illusion. So yes, someone might want to be a sahm might not get that choice based on financial concerns, but I don’t see how any of that is toxic femininity. Really the ideals of feminism is that you won’t (or shouldn’t) be judged for whatever decisions you make (outside of hurting yourself or others)

also as an aside. Feminism and toxic femininity are completely different things.

feminism - is the advocacy of women based on the equality of the sexes

toxic femininity - a form of internalised misogyny which involves restricting yourself to stereotypically “feminine” behaviours

You can be traditionally feminine without it being toxic, it’s about whether you conform to it to the point of restricting yourself or mentally harming yourself

the “be kind” issue feels more like toxic positivity than femininity, ie, being overly nice and disregarding anything negative to the detriment of yourself. This could overlap somewhat with toxic femininity

Jesus, you really are tedious and the Andrew Tate is just dripping out of you.

I don't see it that way - I see someone who is not happy with how their life has gone and who needs something to blame. So rather than accepting that things haven't turned out well, they lash out and assume or genuinely believe that the majority of women feel the same and it's all feminists' fault. It's sad, not malevolent.

HRFT but just regarding your point that men & women both commit infanticide at generally the same rate, I am in the middle of reading a history book on China (20th century). The mothers who committed infanticide (always female babies) did so because they were terrified of the repercussions from their husbands of producing female offspring. These repercussions included severe beatings and rape (sometimes hours after giving birth). They thus killed their baby girls in what they felt to be more humane ways, like drowning, as opposed to having the babies head cleaved in by an axe or thrown against a wall, courtesy of the 'father'.

I hope this expands the topic discussion so that we can make sure we are asking the right questions here and not responding to statistics that confirm our confirmation bias.

@JordanPeterson this thread is just going in circles so lets just look at your own situation.

• Recognise that you are where you are because of your personal choices. You don't have to buy into any cultural expectations of females and you don't need to remain fixated on blaming femine toxicity for your circumstances
• Just like with men, all females are not equal. We have different personalities, intellectual, and physical abilities, so what we achieve/desire in life is not homogeneous
• Move towards rethinking your negative mindset. What would you like to change in your own life? If nothing, then your thread is pointless and as Chaucer said, learn to be happy with what you have
• Develop a pathway to achieve your goals (you are allowed to be selfish in achieving your dreams), and understand delayed gratification
• If you want a better paid job - retrain, get qualifications, move to where those jobs are
• Learn to not be concerned about how your partner's physical appearance could be viewed by others. The main thing is that you are happy with him
• Ask yourself if being a SAHM is realistic. Could you compromise by being a working mum?

I am the mother of adult DC and this is what I would advise if my DD felt like you.

I don’t recognise ‘kind’ as gendered at all, do you have DC, both DH and I encouraged kindness/compassion with our DC, not to their detriment. I think your comments read a bit like a Male Commentator parody; I don’t know any men that take such an extreme position, that’s not to say I don’t know any men that exhibit sexist traits.

on your last point, I think expecting certain behaviour because of your gender is probably a bit ingrained but you therefore challenge your assumptions as these stereotypes are detrimental to people, I I don’t think you just resign yourself to this being the status quo. Countries where this self reflection doesn’t happen leads to extreme behaviour at a state level and limits everyone’s freedom.

Hmm, I don't know about Jordan Peterson but you appear to have a lot in common with Phyllis Schlafly who was opposed to Women's equality in the US. The 1950s want your attitude back.

This point of view assumes that 2 strangers will go home & engage in mutually enjoyable & respectful sex

It disregards any risks involved in going home with strangers, who don’t respect or perhaps even like you & the potential negative experiences that may arise from being in that situation

it doesn’t consider the impact of potentially feeling regret for past behaviour in the long term either, only in the immediate moment & feelings can change in years to come

it doesn’t factor in if someone say, has a handful of one night stands as opposed to someone who is engaging in this behaviour regularly, say for years & how that can affect them emotionally in the long term

if you slept with say, 50 random strangers & none bother to call you back or try to see you again, you really wouldn’t feel at all bad about that in years to come?

The orgasms (assuming you had one every time) would all be worth it?

They all made you feel respected & beautiful?

What if a bunch of them don’t even recognise you in the street later or bother to wave after having been inside you, you’d be fine about that & still feel empowered?

they would all still look attractive to you & someone you’d ordinarily select in the sober light of day?

If some of them looked or acted repellant to you later on, you wouldn’t feel at all bothered that they had known you in the most intimate sense & feel like you had sex with someone who you wouldn’t usually have deemed worthy of you?

sure you might, but it doesn’t negate the risk, does it ?

That is still a risk an individual can choose to take, or not. Nothing to do with what you think toxic femininity is. Have you even read the article linked by a pp?

Take responsibility for the choices you made and stop blaming feminism. Your experiences are yours; you do not speak for other women.

this discussion is about present day western women & feminism not historical situations in China

Is China known to have a culture of 3rd wave feminist culture that permeates society?

just because women in China were historically forced to kill their babies does not negate the fact that in the West infanticide today is committed by men & women at the same rates

If today’s feminism celebrates promiscuity as empowering & discussion of any potential impact is shut down

then how can we possibly make an educated decision on whether or not to engage in this lifestyle if we can’t talk about the potential immediate or long term risks?

if the culture promotes it & sees it as progressive, won’t many people partake so as to avoid being labelled regressive?

So society & its messages cannot influence us in any way that may be harmful ?

I believe the majority of us have been indoctrinated to feel a certain way, yes

& when this is challenged it is not taken kindly

the reaction is the same as telling a Trans activist that people can’t change sex

They simply can’t acknowledge or recognise there are different points of view, that there is any possible chance they may be wrong on any issue & that their behaviour could be getting to the stage where is is at all harmful to society

they don’t see nuance & will argue till the sky is blue using bias academic studies to “prove” their point, without giving an inch, because if they do then their whole case will come crashing down

Radical Feminists & trans activists are essentially cut from the same cloth, though neither group would ever be willing to see that, let alone admit to it