Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Plenty of mothers feel a sense of ownership of their children, rightly or wrongly & try to carve out a life for them they approve of too though

if a loving father is engaged in his daughter’s life & feels a sense of protectiveness towards her, is that not a better option than a distant or absentee father?

Do girls with active engaged fathers tend to do better in future relationships than girls with no father figure or a dad who didn’t care who they dated?

sorry for the delay, I was watching MAFS & making dinner

Thought had answered that one earlier

I don't think unrestrained promiscuity is good for either men or women
This is very much not what you said earlier! You focused exclusively on female sexual freedom.

I think there is more impact on women though, as we have to deal with things like handling accidental pregnancies, getting stis which we could pass onto our babies in childbirth or render us infertile & dealing with the emotional hurt of being ghosted or going though having an abortion alone because your date is no longer returning messages
That's just what you think though. For some women the risk of pregnancy and STi will lead them not to have many sex partners. For others it will not. The point is that women are now free to make that choice (and take responsibility for the consequences) whereas in the past they would have been judged, judged, judged. Your posting here with its original exclusive focus on femal sexual behaviour makes it clear that ths double standard is alive and kicking. Each one of us should be free to make their own choices.

some will say that contraception solves most risks but it can & does fail, condoms break, accidents happen…
See above.

there is also the increased chance of getting stuck in a toxic relationship the more guys you are with, so more chances to become hurt, experience trauma, find yourself in a dangerous or risky situation with someone who literally does not care about your well-being or safety at all
I'd have to dispute this - there are plenty of women out there who have had one or very few sexual relationships and yet those relationships are toxic. Getting stuck in toxic relationships is not about frequency, it's about having the self esteem and the insight to value yourself and dump the person who is toxic quickly.

I only use the term promiscuous because the other word to use (slut) is offensive towards women so am trying to avoid it
'Promiscuous' is a judgemental word. I do not ever use it. Nor should you.

however I will say that when I have seen women having a fight it was not uncommon for them to call the other girl a slut, so I do believe deep down other women do know it’s a negative as we use this term as an insult
Women know nothing of the sort. Women have been socialised into internalised misogyny.

if your husband cheats as if you don’t think the other woman is a slut, or call her that…we know being called that is an insult for a reason
Not every woman reacts like this. Very many put the blame for the cheating exactly where it belongs - on the man. Men lie when they have affairs. They lie to their affair partners. Women know this. And an angry reaction to discovering an affair does not mean that women think the term is acceptable to use. Some may think so (you clearly do!), but many do not, because they recognise that it comes from the way women are conditioned.

another clue that we know it’s not the best practice is when other women tell stories of how they have been with their husband for their whole lives & he was their first & only, or at least first serious boyfriend.
other women will generally recognise this as romantic & sweet, so they see it as positive
Evidence for this? Just because some women think that it's romantic and sweet that some people meet their life partner very young, this does not mean that they think this particular experience (which is mostly down to luck) is in any way morally superior to other ways of managing relationships.

are you going to really think that someone in their twilight years who has been With their love since a young age has really missed out in life?
Of course not, that would be stupid. We are intelligent beings who are able to understand that there are many different and equally valid ways to live life.

or do we recognise that they have something that those of us who have indulged in free love can never really experience in the same way?
Only those who have drunk the kool-aid. 'Indulged in free love' - oh per-leeeeeze go back to 1952!

sure some will say they pity those women & they missed out on a wild youth, but by & large we know that is a beautiful thing
It is a beautiful thing. But it is not better than other things.

people are very quick to agree that say, dating apps are problematic & have changed the dating landscape for the worse now - but if we were more selective then men wouldn’t use them would they
Please lead me to the surveys that say dating apps are problematic, and please stop blaming women for the bad choices men make. Misogyny is not a good look on anyone, male or female.

Back in the day for a guy to cheat it took real effort to find someone, but now it is much easier for both sexes to cheat, the temptation is in the palm of our hands & the more people you sleep with the easier it is to wonder if someone better is a few swipes away
And yet the majority of people do not cheat. Cheating is a choice. We all have to take responsibility for our choices and not whine that 'the dating app made me do it'.

I lived with a male friend a few years ago & he went through a stage of heartbreak where he was lining up 2-3 dates a day with girls
he would bring these girls home, one after lunch, then one late at night…. This went on for a few months & it really shocked me that under the guise of empowerment these girls were just numbers, barely a name remembered
it was bad for him as he seemed so emotionally disconnected & was using women to numb his pain like you would use alcohol or drugs
So you base your point of view on one man who clearly had emotional problems and could have done with major therapy. And you blame women for going on those dates with him. Again, his choice and 100% his responsibility.

being used by men & thinking one night stands are just something fun to do on the weekend with no possible consequence or emotional repercussions long term is shortsighted
Again, just your opinion. It's OK for women to enjoy casual sex. It's OK for men to enjoy casual sex. Sex is pleasurable. You're the one attaching moral judgements to it.

back in my day if you were even calling a guy on the phone or texting him, went on one date you were together or had an unspoken knowledge you were together of sorts, which was romantic
if you didn’t get on then you just broke up & moved onto the next person
Ah, the 'in the good old days' argument... It's not for other people to judge what my interactions with another person mean, thanks very much. That's no better than curtain twitching.

if you didn’t get on then you just broke up & moved onto the next person
I'd hate to have to 'break up' just because I'd sent someone a few texts.

the whole modern concept of “situationships” and the whole “what are we?” Confusion is because of people dating & sleeping with multiple people at the same time
It really isn't, and I don't think there's all that much confusion. Even if there is, that isn't necessarily bad. We should all be free to explore what we want out of life.

ramble over, bedtime now
So let me sum up:

• Nobody should have sexual freedom and we should all go back to the morality of the 1950s. You know, the one that gave us the Magdalene Laundries and kept women trapped in miserable and abusive marriages for decades. Ah, those were the good times.
• Men make bad relationship choices because women, being free to enjoy sex, are tempting them. If women were back in the patriarchal straitjacket, men would behave better.
• When women refuse to live by the patriarchal model demanded of them by men, this is toxic femininity.

Does that summarise your position?

I assumed the picture had been chosen by the producers of the article as representative of the 'datable women' these men can't get, given the only 6' tag line is attached to her picture. I didn't obviously think they'd got together and chosen it, but that it was meant to reflect what they had in mind.

Have you ever spent time with groups of men? Of course they bully and ostracise each other without resorting to physical violence.

significantly more so than women I would say.

I've never read so much shite in my life.
OP doesn't know what femininity, toxic femininity or feminism are, and conflates the three with gay abandon.
All their arguments are confused, muddled, in constant flux and often end up contradicting each other.

What is clear though, is that OP pretty much hates women.

OP, if we could just get to the point where we all (which is my polite way of saying 'where you') understood that 'toxic femininity' does not mean women behaving badly, then this thread might feel a little bit less like wading through treacle in feather wellies.

Breastfeeding sluts with careers

...'toxic femininity' does not mean women behaving badly

Oh god, so much this! This to the max. This with bells on.

Something tells me that OP will never bow down, admit fault or stop arguing their nebulous points that no one, apart from them, can grasp.

Breastfeeding sluts with careers who drink wine.

Breastfeeding, wine drinking, giant hunting sluts with careers

Summary of thread - a woman's place is in the wrong.

I've been backstabbed and manipulated by both sexes - newsflash - it's an inherent human trait probably rooted in primordial instincts to survive, and utterly unrelated to masculinity or femininity.

Putting on a pinny and forgoing financial independence may be this weeks solution to all the ills of mankind / womankind, but it's just a deflection from political and systemic corruption that only serves those with their noses in the trough (who may be either sex).

Nice try champ but until we recognise the above, no amount of Freudian navel gazing or twisting of Jungian metaphysics will solve the issues at hand.

You win the Internet today. Bravo.

Can I get this on a t shirt please 😂

Wrong.

Did Not Do the Research.

This could've been a really interesting, informative and helpful discussion, instead it's just a navel gazing diatribe of how she (?!) is not "like all the other girls". Not just that but all these other women are mean AND womaning wrong. 🙄

Are they ‘not like all the other girls’ because they are a boy?

tl;dr
Summary of thread 2.0

OP blames being childless (while yearning to be a SAHM); in a dead-end job; living in an average house in the wrong part of town; having a non-six figure making/short/ male partner, on toxic femininity. And "Breastfeeding sluts with careers who drink wine".

Thank you @DanielGault and @queenmeadhbh for your valiant efforts on this thread. 💪🏅

But you still appear to lack a coherent understanding of what toxic femininity actually is. I posted a link earlier to a very short, easy read article. Please have a look at it. I'm not being patronising by saying it's easy read because you stated that you don't like complex academic language (even though you forgot yourself and mentioned heteronormativity in one of your replies).

@Icanttellyouanything thaht article is really excellent - a plain English explanation of what toxic femininity really is. OP, I really recommend you read it, it will open your eyes. If you want to open them, that is.

Where have I said that breastfeeding was bad?

Was just posing the concept of breastfeeding pressure as an example of toxic femininity, as it's women who have created that social pressure & this pressure to breastfeed harms women who cannot breastfeed

Would say this thread may be an example of the "sisterhood" being an example of toxic femininity too

By that, referring to feminism as the a "clique" of the sisterhood & any of us who dares question the rules (i.e 3rd wave feminist principles) are torn to shreds!

I'm not saying every example given was right

Interesting when I've provided examples that are more on the mark, they're just disregarded as being not related to women but just "people" in general

Eg: the pressure for women to "Be kind!" - that's something that is promoted by women & it also harms women, you never seem to hear men promote that phrase on repeat, or expect they should always be sweet & kind

But users still want to insist that this is just something "people" say in general & disregard that point

It seems like if something doesn't suit feminists here & challenges in any way, then they have a meltdown, become aggressive, or are intentionally obtuse

& even if they reluctantly concede just a little that I may have a point on an issue, they will claim it's still not worthy of discussion because men are worse

The societal pressure for women to ‘be kind’ (as well as being meek, well-behaved and behave in a way befitting for females, etc) comes from the expectation of men essentially.@JordanPeterson

Also went into detail about why the modern trend of women celebrating our promiscuity as "empowering" today is harmful

But instead of acknowledging that point, the pushback here is that women are "free" now to sleep around & that is some great achievement, but it is a woman's responsibility to deal with the consequences/risks

That's a good out isn't it - any of us who in years to come feels harmed by their past & points to the cultural influence that led them to believing it would always feel fun to sleep around cannot ever blame feminism for celebrating it, we can only blame ourselves as individuals

Apparently we can only refer to it as "sexual freedom" or "sexual liberation" - we can't use terms like "sleeping around" "promiscuity" - those terms are off limits.

It's funny how hardcore lefties have a real issue with trying to police people's language & you are only allowed to engage if you use their prescribed terms, because if you use the incorrect term then your entire point will be disregarded & misconstrued

The comments about this were an analysis, if people have taken that personally is that because deep down I have touched a nerve, so they go on the attack?

Such deflection, hostility & sarcasm here, rather than balanced analysis here

They'd have you believe we were all perfect & can do no wrong, ever!

No this term came up a few years ago as a catchphrase & you don't hear men push it, as they don't believe it

Many men know that women are not all kind or the popularity of the "manosphere" would not exist

Are you saying you've never seen the phrase "Be kind!" being pushed here by women onto other women?

In regards to men expecting women to behave in certain ways, don't we expect men to behave in certain ways too?

"Also went into detail about why the modern trend of women celebrating our promiscuity as "empowering" today is harmful."

Are you STILL insisting you're a woman ffs. I'm a woman and if I was writing the bullshit comment above, I'd say their not our. It's not grammatically correct to use our in that sentence. You're trying too hard mate.

Interesting.

May be we could all be kinder. Shouldn't men be kinder? Should men be less promiscuous? Should they held more accountable for the results of there promiscuity? Should we be curbing their sexual freedom? Should we hold men to the same standards we hold women and stop the 'boys will be boys' narrative excusing all sorts of behaviour. What are your thoughts?