Toxic femininity?

[JordanPeterson]

If men & women are equal

Then it stands to reason that toxic femininity is a real phenomenon

However it does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

As a 40 something woman have experienced this phenomenon & read of it here

Examples that spring to mind include:

• Culture of "cliques" which often lead to bullying & ostracising behaviour
• Using tears as a manipulation tactic
• Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman
• Judging others for different life choices (Eg: not having a career, being "broke")
• Hateful behaviour towards those who don't identify with or agree with Feminist agendas
• Focus on appearance (Eg: minimising the risk of botox/plastic surgery to others, reluctance to form friendships with those they perceive as "daggy" - see cliques)
• Obsession towards drinking wine as a personality trait

Now many women do not partake in such negative & socially damaging behaviours

& most of these examples are of toxicity towards other women which is interesting

But that doesn't mean that toxic femininity is not real, does it?

Are we just our own worst enemy?

AIBU to find the culture of toxic femininity worthy of discussion?

Speaking of avoiding the question...

@JordanPeterson how about answering my question on sexual freedom for women?

In what sense has it gone too far?
Should women have less sexual freedom than men, and if yes, why?

I have! Have you never encountered groups of male football fans, urban gangs & similar tribes, who not only exclude others but kill them?

Friendship groups of either sex or both aren't obliged to actively include incomers, are they? They can choose their company.

‘Toxic’, is OTT as a description of slight sarcasm.

I haven’t been single since 2002, so I don’t have personal experience with this, but the thing about “six foot tall men” is apparently a real phenomenon on dating sites.

https://www.thefp.com/p/young-men-who-dropped-out-of-dating-pool

Is this all dating sites across the globe or just UK. UK men aren’t particularly tall, especially in certain parts of the British Isles.

However it [toxic femininity] does not seem to be widely acknowledged or permitted to be discussed in society

oh COME ON. Toxic femininity has been written about (mostly by men) ever since Hera in The Iliad and the Wife of Bath. Why are you acting like it's a brand new and secret thing that no one's allowed to talk about?

Women express hostility and aggression differently to men because of the huge cultural (and physical. legal) constraints place on women by our male dominated society.

Men & women both commit infanticide at generally the same rate

Yeah but they don't commit ANY other form of homicide at anywhere like the same rate do they?

Come on this is really silly goady stuff

This piece focused on the US.

Apparently the “666 rule” - women who won’t date men unless they’re at least six feet tall, earn at least six figures, and have penises at least six inches long - has been around long enough that someone posted it on Urban Dictionary in 2018.

Interesting the image of a woman chosen to illustrate the piece. Has the irony of using the stereotypical male fantasy figure of womanhood as the mouthpiece for this 'unfair' preference for tall men passed them by? If that's what these complainers have in mind when they think of datable women, then I'm not surprised they're disappointed. Because women who look like that will be able to choose from a LOT of men. And if the ones they prefer tend to be over 6', well that's too bad for the short guys isn't it? If they adjusted their own expectations, they might meet with some success.

Is this comparable to the high proportion of men seeking much smaller and/or much younger women?

Either we all get to have mating preferences (wise, unrealistic or whatever), or nobody does.

My goodness, that’s specific!

if U.S, I suppose may be more realistically demographically but still ridiculous. I went around the U.S as a young child in 1985 and although my dad is 6ft, I remember Mum commenting on how tall the men were in particular, then again she is 5ft!

Do men want much smaller women in the dating arena then these days? That’s bizarre, if so, also I wonder why.

I haven’t dated since 2005 so I don’t have a clue.

It's not even that they have to do more; it's that women who have earning power, control over their own fertility and no sexual shame need them not at all, and they just. Can't. STAND IT.

You can't make it make sense. It's just arse dribble to try and get women to engage with an incel they would rightly ignore in real life.

I must admit this short guy whinging really grinds my gears. Its perfectly obvious that not all women will only consider tall men. There's simply not enough to go round for one thing. Some women will only date tall men, but I'd bet they are fewer on the ground than men who only want to date pretty/petite/curvy/whatever women. Fine. We are all entitled to our preferences. Sometimes for short men that means they can't get every single woman they might want. Tough, work on your personality, extend the range of women you'll consider and you will likely find someone who doesn't mind your height.
As for a preference for tall men being some heinous toxic femininity, does anyone really believe that it is female preference that's the game changer? Do you not think the tall thing is something men create and perpetuate amongst themselves to establish their own hierarchy? Because take women out of the equation and you'll still find men competing with each other to be the most masculine. The strongest, fittest, most powerful, and height it just a physical manifestation of that. Women did not create the hierarchies between males. Men did, and provide us with constant messaging as to which of them are superior. If some men are the losers in that, they need to take it up with other men not rely on women to elevate them because 'it's not fair else'.

The piece is by a female journalist and posted on a site run by a lesbian couple.

So, 12 pages in and the OP still doesn’t seem to understand or is able to explain what toxic femininity is and is obsessed with SAHMs?

I don't get this either. I mean if the group is just "anyone who wants to join in" it's not a friendship group is it, it's "anyone in the world".

I have some friends, people I like, get on with, want to spend time with. Other people I have no animosity towards but don't find as congenial. Why would I want to spend time with them/include them in my social group when I don't enjoy their company? Just to "be kind"? What's the difference between "choosing who to spend time with" and "actively excluding others"? The (regrettable) one is a necessary flipside of the (perfectly justifiable) other. Having left school a long time ago, I am fully over being "left out" by other people - if they don't enjoy my company, c'est la vie, somebody else will. It's a big old world. I do feel the women who get the nark on about "bitcht school mums" who don't want to be their bestie or (the inhumanity) have preexisting friendship groups they're not interested in expanding are a bit incel-ish, incidentally; just as no woman owes some neckbeard a fuck, no woman owes another her friendship just because she wants it. That's not how "friendship" works.

sorry for the delay, I was watching MAFS & making dinner

Thought had answered that one earlier

I don’t think unrestrained promiscuity is good socially for either men or women

I think there is more impact on women though, as we have to deal with things like handling accidental pregnancies, getting stis which we could pass onto our babies in childbirth or render us infertile & dealing with the emotional hurt of being ghosted or going though having an abortion alone because your date is no longer returning messages

some will say that contraception solves most risks but it can & does fail, condoms break, accidents happen…

there is also the increased chance of getting stuck in a toxic relationship the more guys you are with, so more chances to become hurt, experience trauma, find yourself in a dangerous or risky situation with someone who literally does not care about your well-being or safety at all

I only use the term promiscuous because the other word to use (slut) is offensive towards women so am trying to avoid it

however I will say that when I have seen women having a fight it was not uncommon for them to call the other girl a slut, so I do believe deep down other women do know it’s a negative as we use this term as an insult

if your husband cheats as if you don’t think the other woman is a slut, or call her that…we know being called that is an insult for a reason

another clue that we know it’s not the best practice is when other women tell stories of how they have been with their husband for their whole lives & he was their first & only, or at least first serious boyfriend.

other women will generally recognise this as romantic & sweet, so they see it as positive

are you going to really think that someone in their twilight years who has been With their love since a young age has really missed out in life?

or do we recognise that they have something that those of us who have indulged in free love can never really experience in the same way?

sure some will say they pity those women & they missed out on a wild youth, but by & large we know that is a beautiful thing

people are very quick to agree that say, dating apps are problematic & have changed the dating landscape for the worse now - but if we were more selective then men wouldn’t use them would they

Back in the day for a guy to cheat it took real effort to find someone, but now it is much easier for both sexes to cheat, the temptation is in the palm of our hands & the more people you sleep with the easier it is to wonder if someone better is a few swipes away

I lived with a male friend a few years ago & he went through a stage of heartbreak where he was lining up 2-3 dates a day with girls

he would bring these girls home, one after lunch, then one late at night…. This went on for a few months & it really shocked me that under the guise of empowerment these girls were just numbers, barely a name remembered

it was bad for him as he seemed so emotionally disconnected & was using women to numb his pain like you would use alcohol or drugs

being used by men & thinking one night stands are just something fun to do on the weekend with no possible consequence or emotional repercussions long term is shortsighted

back in my day if you were even calling a guy on the phone or texting him, went on one date you were together or had an unspoken knowledge you were together of sorts, which was romantic

if you didn’t get on then you just broke up & moved onto the next person

the whole modern concept of “situationships” and the whole “what are we?” Confusion is because of people dating & sleeping with multiple people at the same time

ramble over, bedtime now

Becoming involved in affairs & being the "other" woman

What does this have to do with femininity? Men do this.

"sexual liberation" does not equal "promiscuity". The clue is in the word "liberation" - freedom to have sex - or not. As with all feminism, the freedom to CHOOSE is what is aimed for, rather than women being simultaneously sexually repressed (no sex with anyone who isn't their husband) and exploited (no right to refuse to have sex with their husband).

You really do come across as very very confused about what feminism is, what feminity means, and what you dislike so much about women.

So? The article is about men finding it hard to get a date. The picture has been chosen to represent the women who won't date them. My point stands regardless of the sex of the author.

And thanks to feminism, we are raising our girls to be strong and independent and follow their own inclinations in a way that has never even been attempted hitherto. Once upon a time not so long ago it wouldn't have been a case of "not wanting to disappoint your mother", but of literally BELONGING to your father and not being able to do anything he didn't sanction with your life. You really really do not know what you're talking about.

Also with it going too far these days, research shows that when presented with endless options people aren’t actually happier

we actually prefer having less options

this is why when you go to a restaurant & the menu is like a big book we become confused & struggle to decide, we aren’t sure if we have selected the right option

when presented with a one page menu with only a few options we can decide more easily what to choose & tend to feel more satisfied with our decision making

& many people find the best meal they have eaten was a situation where they had no choice offered at all, maybe grandma just handed you a plate of something & it was the most satisfying meal ever

if you look at dating in the same way as choosing food & reading a menu then consumption of endless one night stands isn’t leaving us feeling truly, deeply satisfied just because we have endless choice & options

You said, “If that's what these complainers have in mind when they think of datable women, then I'm not surprised they're disappointed” - which I interpreted as you thinking the “complainers” had picked the picture. If you didn’t mean to imply that, okay. 🤷‍♀️