To think this country's future looks bleak due to the attitude towards having children

[KookyExpert]

I have observed a very hostile attitude towards people with children especially on MN. Whenever anyone posts anything about struggling financially due to childcare etc, there are lots of people commenting on how having a family and children are lifestyle choice.
As the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child, there are no villages these days and most families have both parents working which makes the role of parenting even harder in the current times.
Not just that, there are many family friendly organisations but in reality if someone has a young child and when parents have to take time off work to look after sick children, there are so many people moaning about it.
UK reported its lowest birth rate in the last 2 decades and it's relying on migrants to fill the jobs. With the hostile attitude and crippling childcare costs, I think this country's future looks bleak and the shortage for many occupations will only get bigger with increased reliance on migrants to fill those jobs if people keep choosing to have no children.
I expect people to have bit more sympathy for parents with children and less hostility to create a better future for everyone.

I do think the UK is generally quite a hostile place to have a family. We have some of the most expensive childcare in the world for a start. I wouldn't even mind paying as much if it was going to the incredibly hard working (and mainly female!) staff that work in them but it doesn't. Good quality early years care has benefits far beyond the cost to the government in good outcomes, that has been proven time and time again when you look at other countries that fund it properly.

I think we still have a "children should be seen and not heard" mentality. If you go to the continent, children are taken everywhere and are welcome in most places.

Of course there are a minority of people who practise permissive parenting and as a result have kids that behave terribly in public spaces and that's not good but the majority of parents I know personally are trying really hard to raise kind, polite children that will be positive members of society in the future.

It does sometimes feel that trying to raise happy healthy children is made harder in the UK, I don't think we're set up correctly.

Not just that, there are many family friendly organisations but in reality if someone has a young child and when parents have to take time off work to look after sick children, there are so many people moaning about it.

Well, yeah, if you’re constantly having to work overtime and take all the shifts that parents don’t want to work, never at the top of the list for priority for anything in the workplace then you’re going to moan about it. It’s human nature. My workplace is family friendly to the point where it discriminates against childless people, and the parents still bleat on about not being given enough recognition or support.

It would be helpful OP if you could outline what you actually want. People to be overjoyed to have their working life impacted by other people’s kids? Random people to provide you with a village?

I agree only on childcare costs - they are nuts, impact productivity and equality of the sexes, and surely must be capable of being done better.

Myself and DH have a combined income of about 55k, working very ordinary jobs. We have no kids and don’t plan on them, however discussed with DH before that even if we did want kids, there’s no way in hell we’d be able to afford them! We can’t even get on the property ladder with the COL crisis, we are trying hard to save though but it takes so long.

I’m not familiar with the exact child credits/monies people get, but even with that I don’t think us having a child would be sustainable, childcare costs alone would cripple us, let alone all the other expenses. I genuinely don’t understand how ordinary people afford it!

My brother and his partner have a child, again they both work very ordinary jobs and they really struggle. Why would people want to put themselves through this financial struggle?

I think we still have a "children should be seen and not heard" mentality. If you go to the continent, children are taken everywhere and are welcome in most places.

That’s also because on the continent, people other than the parents are encouraged to teach and discipline the kids and ensure that their behaviour is good. The other side of the “village” mentality. Do that in this country and you’re likely to be told to fuck off and stop talking to someone else’s kids (at least where I live).

You have to find a way to make connections during your weekends.

What about neighbours?

We moved to a different part of the UK when DS was four months old — all our families not in the UK, friends left behind in London, two FT jobs once I returned from maternity leave. Extremely insular village. DS went to the local childminder once I returned to work. She or her teenage daughter would occasionally babysit at night.

Once DS started school, he was in breakfast/afterschool clubs, but one night a week DH and I both had to work late, so DS would attend Beavers, which was just down the hall from afterschool — the leader was a neighbour who had a child in DS’s class. He was a cop and worked odd shifts so I or DH would occasionally help out by taking his DD home from afterschool and feeding her. Similarly later on, when DS made friends with another village child, we met the parents on pickups from play dates and swapped babysitting occasionally. An elderly reading volunteer we sometimes picked up groceries for also lived nearby.

It meant that, after a few years, at a pinch there was someone local I could call to grab DS if my bus home broke down. It took work and openness to connections and time, though.

I think we still have a "children should be seen and not heard" mentality. If you go to the continent, children are taken everywhere and are welcome in most places

That's because they are seen and not heard. They behave, because their parents aren't entitled and don't expect everyone else to accommodate their lifestyle choices.

Haha such beautiful examples in this thread already OP.

YANBU.

Tldr - I want everyone to pay for my kids, and anyone who doesn't, is hostile.

To the people asking what I want from this post, I want people to be less hostile and bit more acceptable of parents with young children, it's only a short phase.
I have good childcare arrangement, a decent job and a great set of friends which I am absolutely grateful for but I have faced this hostility myself and I see many parents in similar situation.

I have been meaning to ask. I remember you saying a woman was pushing you to cover Xmas last year because you didn’t have kids and she did. I was furious on your behalf. Please tell me you had Xmas off?! 🤞🤞🤞

Miss Havisham?

Why does it bother you so much? My youngest has just started university. I never expected everyone to love and welcome my kids. The stuff in your post doesn’t upset me. Life is tough for many people in many different situations. I don’t expect the world to stop because I had had children. Just put your head down and get on with it.

My parents had no family support, they both worked. My Mother also worked in the evenings. They made huge sacrifices to bring me and my sister up. Child benefit was the only money from the State. Credit was non existent. If you couldn't save for it, you went without. Clothes were hand me downs or jumble sale, furniture from the auction sale. All meals cooked from scratch. If you were cold, you put another layer on. My sister was dropped off at the childminder en route to the train station prior to a long rail commute and collected on the way home. She retrained as a teacher when I was born to have more flexibility. People nowadays think that everyone else owes them and should help them. Why? If you want children, you should make sure you can look after them and that includes supporting them.

@arethereanyleftatall how are you paying for my child or anyone's child? We are higher earners so don't claim any child benefits, pay a lot in taxes and no free childcare. How are you paying for other people's children? Absolutely laughable.

I don't think attitudes are the problem. The problem is that jobs, even 'good' ones now often don't pay enough to cover the costs of childcare on top of rent/mortage/utilities/food. The government needs to subsidise childcare heavily and/or pay people real benefits for having children. Or make employers pay people properly.

We're very well off in the scheme of things but unless something changes I'm not sure how even my kids will afford families of their own, there will be limits to how much we are able to help them out.

Well tbh the child is offering something in return

whose wages do you think will be covering your state pension? Care fees?

She called in sick on the day and the manager called me tried to pull me in but I refused and he had to work it. She’s been talking since about her plans for this Xmas as she now considers it her turn to have it off.

I am actively job-hunting!

OMG. She is shameless. How dare she call in sick at Christmas like that? Ugh. Glad you didn’t work it though.

I don't agree. I have a flexible job and a boss who couldn't be more supportive. The government are extending the 30 free h. I won't benifit but believe me that's a HUGE bonus. Yes, it's hard but don't dismiss the U.K. . We actually have it quite good! Room to improve , yes, but it's going in the right direction

Lots of comments on this post prove the point hence I rest my case here.
Wish you all good luck for your entitlement to demand good public services in 30-50 years time when all you did was hate on people having children.

Absolutely nothing here 'proves your point'

What an odd little post/rant

What an immature comment. Do you honestly think you are performing a public service by procreating? I had my kids because I wanted to. Not in order to provide for others. And don’t pretend you did either.

It’s not 30 hours free

Its 30 funded hours

most nurseries put the costs up to afford the difference as well. Plus you need to top up

😂😂😂
I shall now flounce because no one agrees with me.

Actually I don't agree. OP

I'm a single mum and I have a 'village'. No family close by, but I have two lovely neighbours, I have one female friend nearby, and they all help in an emergency. Two male friends who act as occasional role models and advisors. A sister and a niece who would be his guardians if something happened to me.

DS attends an indie school, and they couldn't be more helpful and supportive. They cared for him when I went in for surgery. Their pastoral care is outstanding. They are always there if I need help.

I left London because I found it to be cold, dangerous and uncaring. I've found us a decent place that works for us.