To think this country's future looks bleak due to the attitude towards having children

[KookyExpert]

I have observed a very hostile attitude towards people with children especially on MN. Whenever anyone posts anything about struggling financially due to childcare etc, there are lots of people commenting on how having a family and children are lifestyle choice.
As the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child, there are no villages these days and most families have both parents working which makes the role of parenting even harder in the current times.
Not just that, there are many family friendly organisations but in reality if someone has a young child and when parents have to take time off work to look after sick children, there are so many people moaning about it.
UK reported its lowest birth rate in the last 2 decades and it's relying on migrants to fill the jobs. With the hostile attitude and crippling childcare costs, I think this country's future looks bleak and the shortage for many occupations will only get bigger with increased reliance on migrants to fill those jobs if people keep choosing to have no children.
I expect people to have bit more sympathy for parents with children and less hostility to create a better future for everyone.

Well, they are lifestyle choices. No one is denying that childcare is expensive, but you do have to consider what you can afford.

There are plenty of native British people who are struggling to find jobs, so I don’t think it’s accurate to say that jobs are going to migrants.

If you really want a hostile attitude on MN, try being a teacher or former teacher, a MiL and over the age of 60.

A lot of this sounds like “I want to have children and so other people need to help me achieve that regardless of whether they want to or not - and btw I’m not going to offer you anything in return.”

Having “a village” isn’t about other people selflessly forming one around you. A lot of parents seem to misinterpret it as such. A village is what you work to build yourself - by finding other parents to do childcare / babysitting swaps with, by looking around you and exchanging favours other people need for the ones you need, by reaching out and offering to help others in a similar position as you because that’s how to forge bonds. When people on MN post about being sad they have no “village”, they never seem to have considered laying the foundations of that village themselves.

I have no problem with migrants. My parents immigrated here so I have a lot of respect for the hard working migrants. Most of the GPs at my surgery are Indians or Nigerians. It's not about that. I am just surprised/disappointed by the lack of any sympathy but more so towards hostility towards parents having young children. Some of the comments above already prove my point.

You lost me at migrants to be honest. I don't see how this is relevant. I can only justify you mentioning it if you imply British children are somehow superior to children from other cultures.
I can assure you people who chose not to have children are faced with a lot more hostility.

This.

A lot of the threads you are referring to are expecting people to always accommodate them because they have children.

I have a lot of respect for the hard working migrants.

So what’s the problem with migrants doing jobs that Brits don’t want to do?

Agreed.

What would really help with the birth rate would be affordable, high-quality childcare as a matter of course so that women can have children, continue to make strides in their career without crippling family childcare costs which are disproportionately borne by women. Not ‘sympathy’. Policy.

Point about migrants is that many countries like India and Nigeria need their skilled people like Doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers etc more than UK due to their population size but people in UK think it's totally acceptable to drain their resources and bring their skilled people here to serve them while being very hostile towards parents who have young children who can study, work hard and fill those future job roles.
It's also about the ethical issues of draining a developing country of its resources due to your own selfishness of choosing to have an easy life.

You could argue it the other way, in that childfree people in the workplace are often pressured to defer to people with children.
Parents get Child Benefit, tax credits and financial help with childcare - all of this is funded by taxpayers, many of whom don't have children, or their children are grown up.
And that's fine, because paying tax is for the overall benefit of society, but it's a bit steep to claim that parents get no help or support.
And having kids absolutely IS a lifestyle choice, I'm afraid.

When people on MN post about being sad they have no “village”, they never seem to have considered laying the foundations of that village themselves.

This needs to be pinned somewhere. I've seen so many threads on here where people in the least desirable situations find themselves pregnant and the first thing poster's recommend is to check what benefits they are entitled to. Really, if that's your starting point then you shouldn't be having children. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It is your responsibility to provide for your child.

I dislike the way some women talk about other women as "breeders or breeding".

Thete is an argument about the morality of, for example, draining developing countries of their teachers, from.example, when those countries have trained them and are in desperate need.

In the longer term I think it will be better for climate change and natural resources if population size decreases. I realise that there will be short term problems associated with that (not enough working people to support the large elderly population), but as you say that can be partly addressed by immigration.

I'm not hostile towards children or parents at all. I have kids. But I think more people choosing to remain child free has its advantages.

*A lot of this sounds like “I want to have children and so other people need to help me achieve that regardless of whether they want to or not - and btw I’m not going to offer you anything in return.”

Having “a village” isn’t about other people selflessly forming one around you. A lot of parents seem to misinterpret it as such. A village is what you work to build yourself - by finding other parents to do childcare / babysitting swaps with, by looking around you and exchanging favours other people need for the ones you need, by reaching out and offering to help others in a similar position as you because that’s how to forge bonds. When people on MN post about being sad they have no “village”, they never seem to have considered laying the foundations of that village themselves*

so well said. Your progeny is meant to give back to the village too.

instead it’s all rather ‘what the village owes me’ while I look after myself and my family by scrambling over others to get to the top of the dung heap.

As the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child

Well, yes, but far too many parents are quite happy to 'take' from the village, but take offence if 'the village' wants something in return or, heavens above, dares to give an opinion or advice (or discipline) to their child.

The point of 'it takes a village to raise a child' is that a well-rounded child will be brought up by a wider network - family, neighbours, teachers, shopkeepers, etc. Sometimes these are formal 'expected' relationships, but often they're not.

This is what we have lost - trust in others in our communities - the concept of 'stranger danger' has a lot to answer for when we all know that kids are most likely to be put at risk by people known to them, in their own households.

@KookyExpert I think you'll find that Brits are not welcoming migrants, skilled or otherwise.
Ask why the brits dont want to do these jobs

When people on MN post about being sad they have no “village”, they never seem to have considered laying the foundations of that village themselves.

^^ Absolutely this. People want to take the help of a village without being part of other people’s villages

It's also about the ethical issues of draining a developing country of its resources due to your own selfishness of choosing to have an easy life.

Case in point. As per my previous comment, people choosing not to have children experiencing a lot more hostility. And you appear to think that this is OK.
Sorry mate, but you are not special for having kids. Yes, they should get subsidised childcare, educational opportunities and safety in their own country. But I don't owe you eternal gratitude and "village" services when your opinion of the childless people is that of them being selfish and choosing to have an easy life. Frankly, maybe you should examine your own attitudes just in case it is inviting the exact response you are getting from others.

Where is you are supposed to miraculously meet those other parents you're meant to be swapping favours with? I am a lone parent and work full time and use wraparound care for my child, I drop them at the door and don't see any other parents, let alone have time to stand around chatting. I don't have friends with children, no family in this country and spend 50 hours a week at work. Weekends are for spending time with my child.

When your work suddenly decides that you're expected to be able to go to mandatory social events monthly after work with minimal notice (because no one at work has any kids and can decide to just do this) who is this village who will now step in and collect my child from school etc??

Would you rather they had an abortion than claim benefits then?

Progeny? Why can't you say children? Slightly less disparaging.

It's also about the ethical issues of draining a developing country of its resources due to your own selfishness of choosing to have an easy life.

However professionals trained in the UK are migrating to other countries at an ever increasing rate, because they believe those countries will offer a better standard of living. Is that also wrong?

Ultimately having children is a choice, it’s right to consider how you will resource yourself to accommodate that choice whether that be financially, creating your “village” or whatever.

I wanted a nice family of 2 children and I wanted to look after them myself until they went to school. But I never met a man that wasn't a complete selfish loser so I had a baby and brought him up myself working full time , bought a nice house, we were very happy together, still are, he's 40.
But it isn't what I really wanted, I'd have liked a family. I couldn't afford more than one on my own.
You can't trust a man any more, they cheat, lie and go off with someone else at the drop of a hat.
If I don't work there is no pension and no future.

The people who have raised the point about childless people being judged poorly are spot on. They are often expected to pay the price professionally eg working at Christmas when they might have their own commitments like sick family to care for.

Having “a village” isn’t about other people selflessly forming one around you. A lot of parents seem to misinterpret it as such. A village is what you work to build yourself - by finding other parents to do childcare / babysitting swaps with, by looking around you and exchanging favours other people need for the ones you need, by reaching out and offering to help others in a similar position as you because that’s how to forge bonds. When people on MN post about being sad they have no “village”, they never seem to have considered laying the foundations of that village themselves “Having a village” is also about having people related to you who feel an obligation to help because of that family relationship. But for many it’s all about “me and my own little family” with no obligation to others “just because you’re related”. Yes, there are truly toxic families which are best shed, and it’s important to stand up for yourself and your own needs, but are we moving too far in rejecting extended family?