To think this country's future looks bleak due to the attitude towards having children

[KookyExpert]

I have observed a very hostile attitude towards people with children especially on MN. Whenever anyone posts anything about struggling financially due to childcare etc, there are lots of people commenting on how having a family and children are lifestyle choice.
As the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child, there are no villages these days and most families have both parents working which makes the role of parenting even harder in the current times.
Not just that, there are many family friendly organisations but in reality if someone has a young child and when parents have to take time off work to look after sick children, there are so many people moaning about it.
UK reported its lowest birth rate in the last 2 decades and it's relying on migrants to fill the jobs. With the hostile attitude and crippling childcare costs, I think this country's future looks bleak and the shortage for many occupations will only get bigger with increased reliance on migrants to fill those jobs if people keep choosing to have no children.
I expect people to have bit more sympathy for parents with children and less hostility to create a better future for everyone.

Does disagreement equate to anger then? I don't agree with you, maybe take your own advice and accept that I don't have to.

No, you don’t have to agree with the - checks notes - definition of lifestyle choice.

And you’re right , you’re totally not demonstrating being mad about people using terms you disapprove of. Not at all.

Not sure how you have interpreted my opinion to be of that thinking. I have been on MN for 17 years so am well experienced in what to expect from it. My position is coming from a place of sympathy for Mothers, especially with young children that come here for support but all they appear to get these days is judgment and derision or the personal becomes the political. I am just offering my thoughts on how this has changed; I didn't realise you had been assigned gatekeeper for the forum and are in a position to tell anyone whether MN is the place for them - how patronising!

I think this is a subject on which we’ll have to agree to disagree, not least because it’s of little consequence what we each want to call it. With any luck the next 18 years of your parenting contribution to battling human extinction will make you as happy as my childfree lifestyle choice makes me.

That the impact of the choice is greater doesn't mean that it isn't a lifestyle choice, though.

(I'd also argue that removing the lifestyle choice of car ownership would have a great impact on Western existence. Think about how many people rely on use of a car to do absolutely everything - not least, keep a job. Similarly, removing the right to select your preferred size of house would have a large impact on the UK property market upon which much of our economy is balanced. Neither is an extinction event - though interestingly, we are now on the verge of an extinction event through overpopulation - but having children is far from the only lifestyle choice that has a great impact on society.)

Not 3 pages ago you were the one asking, "So why the hell are you on a forum for parents named, 'Mumsnet'!".

It is rather patronising, isn't it?

You're interpretation of the definition is what I'm arguing against, I haven't read anything so far to suggest your interpretation has any basis in reality. In what reality is not purchasing properties akin to the existential crisis that would arise if everyone stopped having children!

You are arguing the exact opposite and yet I can resist assigning the 'mad' title basically, I can resist because we all know name calling and belittling people is the last resort of someone who has 'no' argument, it is also very easy to do on an anonymous forum.

Your not 'you're'

How's that patronising?

Completely agree. The attitude of these types you describe is "you decided to have kids, tough luck" Most people I know have kids, it's not something that's a real luxury 🤣 Years ago people had massive families and they didn't get the same guilt trip. Then there are those who blame us for climate change. The truth is in the future we won't have enough of a workforce to keep the economy going.

I'm going to assume you're now taking the mick as it's patently obvious what I mean.

The next 18 years- well if you think that is how long parenting lasts 😂,

I typed ‘define lifestyle choice’ into Google and copied and pasted the result. If you want to take issue with that then I don’t know, email these guys: https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

Do we? I’m commenting on what reads to me as hostility 🤷🏻‍♀️ In my experience pulling out the cliches is usually a good sign of an argument hitting rigor mortis.

You choose to apply the word to the choice to have DC that doesn't mean you are correct.

Cliches, what like, 'having children is a Lifestyle choice', not heard that one before.

Totally agree with this.

Having children= lifestyle choice

No, that would be referred to as ‘stating the obvious’. At least in a country where you can indeed choose whether you want to have children or not.

For a start a child is not a 'thing' they are human beings with thoughts, feelings and rights, just like you. Having children is not a hobbie, this is the issue I have with the wording and terminology as this isn't just a general discussion forum, it is particularly insensitive to comment on children and a life with them as 'drudgery' or whatever other terms with negative connotations on a forum for parents! Lifestyle choice terminology dehumanises children.

@Goldenbear you are deliberately missing the point. Children are human beings, yes. But they don’t materialise into existence by magic. Their parents choose to have them. That is the choice. You can choose not to have children. It's not like you reach adulthood and a baby just pops into your belly to fulfil your natural childbearing role in society. You have to make the choice to have a child. That's what people are talking about.

Life expectancy is decreasing and pension age is increasing. We'll be lucky to get a pension in the future.

That children are a choice - yes, that children are a 'lifestyle choice'- no

Actually, by assigning the rather superficial label of 'lifestyle choice' to choosing to have children, the implication is that parents have no right to expect consideration, adjustments or support from society as a whole and that non-parents have no obligation to make financial contributions, through taxes, to support parents directly or indirectly. This inturn results in political policies that do not improve the quality of life for existing children and makes it even harder for those that do want children but can't have them due to financial constraints.

So you regret having kids and that’s why you’re raging at people here now.

How the hell do you come to that conclusion from the post you've quoted.

Who's 'raging' I'm disagreeing with posters or challenging their overthinking on having children not an infliction I have and they don't like it. I'm afraid that is the downside to a discussion forum, people don't always agree with you and it doesn't mean they are angry or in a rage😂

Why is ‘lifestyle choice’ superficial? Calling something a lifestyle choice isn’t
commentary on the importance of it, given that lifestyle choices can be minor AND major. Being able to choose to have children, and indeed not have them, is making a choice on how you want to live your life.

Dont know how old you are but i remember the Tories banging on about not having kids unless you can afford them. On and on they banged this drum for years. I live in social housing so i was obviously one of the women (cos lets face it they meant women) they were aiming it at. Its not the reason i didnt have kids. I just didnt want them They are hard work But for Government AND society to bang the "dont have kids unless you can afford it" drum for years and then U turn and whine now that the reckoning has to be paid is galling. I dont recall people standing up for women at the time either. Too late now.

No sorry I didn't know that, I'm Irish. We probably had even bigger families. That's absolutely awful to make women feel guilty, especially at a time when contraception probably wasn't easily accessible (would have been frowned upon too by the Catholic Church)