To think this country's future looks bleak due to the attitude towards having children

[KookyExpert]

I have observed a very hostile attitude towards people with children especially on MN. Whenever anyone posts anything about struggling financially due to childcare etc, there are lots of people commenting on how having a family and children are lifestyle choice.
As the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child, there are no villages these days and most families have both parents working which makes the role of parenting even harder in the current times.
Not just that, there are many family friendly organisations but in reality if someone has a young child and when parents have to take time off work to look after sick children, there are so many people moaning about it.
UK reported its lowest birth rate in the last 2 decades and it's relying on migrants to fill the jobs. With the hostile attitude and crippling childcare costs, I think this country's future looks bleak and the shortage for many occupations will only get bigger with increased reliance on migrants to fill those jobs if people keep choosing to have no children.
I expect people to have bit more sympathy for parents with children and less hostility to create a better future for everyone.

@LaurieFairyCake why do you feel so entitled? Why do you think that people in developing countries should have children, educate them and send them to serve you in your old age while you did nothing to contribute to their lives?

People aren't "resources" (as much as your HR department might like to think they are). They are humans with agency. They aren't beholden to a country and this whole idea of people from developing countries shouldn't be allowed to better their lot by moving somewhere with better prospects is bullshit. Do you think that moving to somewhere with better job prospects should only be the preserve of rich Westerners? Do you think an educated person from say, Stoke, should not be permitted to move to London? Because Stoke needs them?

Sure, countries can (and should) impose caps on immigration, but using the excuse of "it's for their own good" is absolute crap.

There's an enormous difference between allowing people to better their lot by moving, and deliberately depriving other countries by essentially outbidding them. Then when these workers come here, we pay them poorly, overwork them and the home office treats with them with great hostility. It's exploitation, and wouldn't be at all necessary if we gave our own citizens proper pay and conditions.
Let's also remember the environment in which we can "outbid" a poorer country is essentially of our own creation.
My DH is from a country where 70% (out of ~5000) of newly qualified nurses leave the country. Multiply that by all sorts of industries. There's an enormous social cost to that.
Migrants are the only ones who will tolerate the conditions here, and frankly that is messed up.

Over the years on MN I have seen multiple posts from people suspicious of anyone without children who is willing to babysit etc

One particularly mad post suggested that childless aunts or uncles who have toys in their house for their nieces or nephews were absolutely grooming them

As a childless woman I have seen women like me compared to Myra Hindly and Rose West multiple times on here

Maybe childless/free women would be more interested in being part of your "village" if you hadn't forced us out of it in the first place

Because if you want childfree women to stop "acting with hostility" towards you maybe starting a thread about them to slag them off and call them selfish possibly wasn't the best way to do it?

Mean while I shall continue to care for my nephew and provide frequent childcare for my disabled neighbour like the selfish person I am...

People are so thick they can’t see why a falling birth rate is a problem for the country OP, you can see it first hand on this thread. They are so caught up in their own offence at being child free and the apparent burden that it brings them that they can’t see past their own self importance. Then you mention immigrants and they are all over you for it despite it being very clear what your point was but hey let’s all get offended and ignore the actual problem facing the future of the country.

When they are old and the pension dries up because there are not enough new tax payers they will moan about that, or if there is no one to empty their bins, wipe their old arses, deliver their food, provide their medical care, administer their bank accounts, run the electricity and water networks, drive the buses etc. etc. then maybe they will open their eyes as to why people having children is important.

And only child free people are of the opinion that people with kids look down on them or are desperate for them to help raise their DC, the truth is I’m sure that most of us don’t actually give a fuck whether you have kids or not.

So those struggling with infertility should not have kids? So ignorant.

And only child free people are of the opinion that people with kids look down on them or are desperate for them to help raise their DC, the truth is I’m sure that most of us don’t actually give a fuck whether you have kids or not.

You missed this goady thread started by someone with kids then? Sure the majority disagreed with her, but there was a significant minority who agreed.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5022080-to-wonder-if-dinks-will-be-more-lonely-when-older?page=1

Many parent posters have been using the term 'lifestyle choice', critically considering the village aspect and disagreeing with the OP too you know :).

I'm slightly baffled at the number of proudly child-free, strongly opinionated people on a parenting website 🤔

Take it up with MNHQ who have been very clear repeatedly that childfree posters are welcome here

Are you new to this forum?

No problem with child-free people posting. It just wouldn't have occurred to me to spend my time posting on a parents website before I had children in my mid thirties 🙃 I was always happy to help out my friends and colleagues with children and realise how much free time I used to have 😊 I'm pretty sure a lot of these posters are angry trolls.

So to be clear you think childfree posters are angry trolls?

I have adult children, we brought them up without the benefit of childcare subsidies and the minimum wage was very low compared to today with our wages much lower too of course and roughly it was proportional to today house prices to income where we lived. We had to live frugally, that's one old car, no pay tv, no gym, no meals out or trips to coffee shops, only 1 payg phone (they costed more then), no holidays abroad. Things get easier later on as you get promoted, no childcare... it's always harder at first and I get annoyed that people are complaining about needing more help but live lifestyles we could only dream of - remember the help is my taxes, I paid for my kids, don't see why I need to pay for others

No

Then I'm confused as to your point although that's why I clarified as I thought i might be misunderstanding

I realise that including actual data is against the spirit of this thread, but these are the fertility rates in lovely child-friendly Mediterranean countries where their well-behaved offspring are welcome and doted over in all their charming little restaurants.

Yep, they're pretty much the same or lower than the UK (not on the map because Brexit, but currently about 1.49). The big outlier is France, which gives its citizens huge bribes to have kids, but still can't get the fertility up above replacement rate.

It's not about tutting in cafes, it's about cash, and childcare. No idea what's going on in Spain tbh, I think youth unemployment and general economic factors might be relevant?

That is really interesting @AsTheyPulledYouOutOfTheOxygenTent. I had no idea the rate was so low in some countries.

No problem with child-free people posting. It just wouldn't have occurred to me to spend my time posting on a parents website before I had children in my mid thirties 🙃 I was always happy to help out my friends and colleagues with children and realise how much free time I used to have 😊 I'm pretty sure a lot of these posters are angry trolls.

You do realise the majority of topics in MN Talk have nothing to do with having kids, right? And a lot of us have landed here because threads have come up in search engine results and we found the information really helpful?

Having a difference in opinion and view on life and procreation does not make us angry trolls.

Maybe people have had enough of the endless moaning and wanting handouts re. Free childcare free yni free everything.

Maybe tired of the constant lobbying of it all but never see that group pf people getting behind childless people to get more benefits like 50% off council tax or having a better safety net if it goes to shit. Or maybe saying you know what that group of people should get some tax benefit.

At some point the goodwill and sympathy just runs the fuck out.

Well @KookyExpert Im sick of peoples ignorance over why British people cant take certain jobs. This is the THIRD thread ive had to post this on since last Thursday.

I fucking swear to God im going to make a template.

This very definately needs saying again.

a. Fruit picking veg picking etc a lot of which is LIVE IN work. If you rent social housing you have to actually fucking well live there. You are not allowed to live away from home for the length of time these employers want you to. If you want that you will need to give SH tenants more rights! But that would also mean giving them more rights to leave their home for other reasons Up for that are we SH haters???!!!!

b. Gas safety checks fire door checks electric checks Surveys My tenancy agreement says i have to be home for these and no i cant get a friend or neighbour to do it for me.

c. the hatred there is for SH tenants ensures that some busybody would probably report the flat as abandoned if a tenant were to risk their tenancy by taking this job.

d. i have mentioned SH tenants because they will be the most likely group expected to take these jobs yet their hands are tied and they cant And even if they wont perhaps they want a life after the working day (just like home owners have (You know the ones who arent expected to do these jobs) instead of sharing a berth with a stranger.

I think you'll find that single.childfree people.are doing everything they can to make sure they have enough pension to see them through. I know those of my friends who have no children are fully aware they will have noone to call upon when they are elderly and making sure their private pension will be more than enough so should there be no state pension, reduced state pension or whatever they can still have a good retirement.

But you know this is always the line thrown at them that kids will be taxpayers and paying their pension in the future so basically shut 🙄

Wouldn't bother me if the human race died out altogether. I said something similar on another thread a few days ago. We don't do anything to perpetuate the planet like other animals do, all we are doing is destroying it.

Oh, and as for today's DC paying my pension when the time comes, so fucking what? Who is paying for their education and medical care right now, in this moment?

When they are old and the pension dries up because there are not enough new tax payers ....

This will affect everyone and my guess is that there will not be enough tax payers partly because

• Many jobs will be done by AI
• We'll buy cheap disposable crap from large Chinese warehousing companies
• Wages for human care work will remain low leaving little scope to glean taxes from it
• Those who own the modern version of the means of production will continue to offshore their wealth or hide it to avoid paying taxes
• The future working generation that is currently soaking up taxpayer funds in a range of different supports will be too fucking fragile to work anyway.