To think this country's future looks bleak due to the attitude towards having children

[KookyExpert]

I have observed a very hostile attitude towards people with children especially on MN. Whenever anyone posts anything about struggling financially due to childcare etc, there are lots of people commenting on how having a family and children are lifestyle choice.
As the saying goes it takes a village to raise a child, there are no villages these days and most families have both parents working which makes the role of parenting even harder in the current times.
Not just that, there are many family friendly organisations but in reality if someone has a young child and when parents have to take time off work to look after sick children, there are so many people moaning about it.
UK reported its lowest birth rate in the last 2 decades and it's relying on migrants to fill the jobs. With the hostile attitude and crippling childcare costs, I think this country's future looks bleak and the shortage for many occupations will only get bigger with increased reliance on migrants to fill those jobs if people keep choosing to have no children.
I expect people to have bit more sympathy for parents with children and less hostility to create a better future for everyone.

Isnt it just two sides of the same coin though?

I understand your dislike of the word drudgery if that is what you are finding hostile and insulting

However this is a thread where a parent has raised how hard it is being a parent in the UK. And it's a fair comment. The drive for women to "have it all" actually seems to have played out as women "do it all" and have extremely high costs into the bargain. Childcare is expensive, but people need two salaries to survive, but one of those salaries can easily be eaten up by childcare fees so it's a vicious circle.

Meanwhile women are putting in a full time shift at work and then frequently picking up far more than 50% of the childcare, housework and mental load at home.

So if people who do have kids are complaining they have found this difficult and people who aren't having kids are saying this (the drudgery) is a major part of why they don't have kids isn't this just all the same discussion?

That poster didn't say any more than her take on parenting, you have chosen to take it as personally insulting to parenting, but that's just your interpretation of it. Plenty of parents would agree that the way the UK is set up right not for parents it doesn't help spare women from the "drudgery" and therefore this isn't insulting parents but the environment for parents

@IncompleteSenten We can't rely solely on immigration because:

• Immigrants need childcare too to work
• you can't guarantee that any country will be desirable for immigration in the next 20 years or so. That depends on taxes/laws/political situation/environment etc. There is already a competition for skilled immigrants between different European countries.
• Any country could allow only a certain amount of newcomers yearly to avoid social tensions. The exact amount depends on how good social services are. Also, integration is not always free for the state.

I think that is the optimistic way to perceived these comments. Many posters don't want children don't like children and are incapable of empathising with that desire (for some reason only known to themselves) so they like on a thread to froth about their contribution to our children's life as if it was some magnanimous gesture when actually they are just paying taxes like we all have to do. They are also conveniently missing out the practical need for future adults that sustain the infrastructure and the economy.

The way I feel about it is you (general you) can frankly do one if you think your 'tax' that we all pay, indeed my family will pay more in our lifetimes as we have children that will be tax payers of the future, has had any major influence or impact on the way my DC have grown, that effort is all down to DH and I! Coming on to a parent forum to insult with glee is really rather sad!

I think you are slightly projecting here. Saying you would find parenting drudgery is not a judgement on parents generally. Having children is rarely done for the good of society either or as a magnanimous gesture but because hopefully the parents want them. Whether they become tax payers in the future or not. And it is good that tax is used to support children as most would not get an education at all without it.

The birth rate is falling in almost every developed country and it is mainly because when women are educated and have choices they choose to have less or no children. Burying our heads in the sand about the reasons why isn’t helpful to anyone.

So you have decided off the back of how you perceived "childfree" posters comments how that specific poster must have meant hers and how she must be "frothing"

In fact that posters comment referred to none of this:

The way I feel about it is you (general you) can frankly do one if you think your 'tax' that we all pay, indeed my family will pay more in our lifetimes as we have children that will be tax payers of the future, has had any major influence or impact on the way my DC have grown, that effort is all down to DH and I! Coming on to a parent forum to insult with glee is really rather sad!

And was in fact just down to purely how she perceives parenthood would feel for her and therefore why she didn't become a parent

It feels like you have projected a huge backstory of other posters comments onto this one comment that had nothing to do with that and are now accusing her of being insulting and hostile because she chose to answer another posters question on why she didn't want children

But that's an argument in semantics, children 'are' needed to sustain the infrastructure and the economy of a country.

Where did I indicate in my post that taxes aren't a good thing- a bizarre intent you have taken from my post. What I actually wrote was that the tax argument is irrelevant, most of us pay taxes and my family will be paying 4x taxes, we are high earners so quite a lot of tax. That's by the by, your taxes have contributed minimal to my DCs upbringing - fact!

You say educated women are choosing not to have children due to presumably being well aware of the toll it takes on he woman and yet Mumsnet was/is a forum for supporting Mothers with that toll but now Mum's are derided and mocked on here for making that 'lifestyle' choice, the end result being that they they have even fewer support mechanisms in place whilst experiencing the 'drudgery' that is Motherhood. It therefore seems to me that no productive discussion is really wanted on this subject, posters that aren't parents by choice really just want to feel superior and have an outlet to belittle parents.

I don't want children, never have, never will. Would you prefer I had them even though I really don't want them? Would that make me less selfish?

It seems to me that you overuse the word 'project'. I'm discussing the points in the OP just like you. I don't really care for the reasons someone chose not to have children, just like I don't care why people choose to have them. Ultimately, people need to have children, for society to function properly we need children, this is what I am commenting on.

This bullshit again?

More than half of all households in the UK take more out of the system in benefits than they contribute in taxes so, in all probability, the answer to your question is "not the child!".

I used the word project once in the post you are replying to, I'm sorry you think that is overusing it?

This particular conversation is where you specially called a particular poster insulting and hostile. Not where you are generally replying to the OPs points.

People do need to have children for society to function in its current format. The post you were responding to didn't disagree with that though.

If you don't care for the reasons why some people don't have children why have a go at a poster for giving her reasons?

I mean it's elementary, how is anyone going to pay taxes if people don't exist! This is wholly concerned with wealth distribution and political power.

What about maintaining the infrastructure of the country you still need people to replace those that are too old.

"draining a developing country of its resources due to your own selfishness of choosing to have an easy life."

Sorry, what? So people who never had children either through choice or circumstance are selfish and choose to have an easy life?

You sound awful. Truly horrible.

I'm suggesting it is indicative of the hostility and derisive comments towards parents on this forum, it is somewhere that people feel uninhibited to make these scornful remarks. Remarks they wouldn't say in the office to someone who was a parent or at a family gathering when they didn't have children or any context in real life. It is ashame for people that are parents and want to just post for some practical support, often now practical questions become with a load of political charged replies.

Come with not become

Not the point I was replying to.

It was inferred that "this child" is going to pay someone else's pension.

The stats say they're not.

It is really rudeness just dressed up as insincere, 'im just being honest' gumpf! You probably know that though. I wouldn't bother with your deflection, I'm not interested.

How do you think that has arisen, the policies that have been in place for the last 14 years but also wealth distribution changes since the 1980s have maybe had something to do with that. Do you really that these 'statistics' are not dynamic do you think that this will never change? Even if you don't your argument falls down as a family of 4 is still paying in more to the system than you over their life time!

In addition is the infrastructure maintenance irrelevant then?

Absolutely. Anyway, who said not having children is an easy life? Many women can’t have children for a variety of reasons and this causes them a lot of heartache, depression and sadness. It’s not easy at all not having children.

I don't even understand the point you are trying to make here but again you seem to be assuming motives on my part in the same way you were assuming motives on the original poster you were responding to

I'm not deflecting, I'm responding. But by all means if you aren't interested in a conversation about this that's fine.

…What’s wrong with having an easy life, exactly? Is it somehow more virtuous to struggle through doing something you don’t want to do, something you hate doing then? I find the notion that only hard things qualify as worthwhile to be deeply weird tbh. Am I supposed to get to the end of my life and go ‘Well! That’s done! Fucking hated pretty much every minute of it, now give me the back pats’? And that’s preferable, a life well lived?

Am I selfish in that I choose to live in a way I actually enjoy, that makes me happy? Yes! Is that a bad thing? Not to me it isn’t. If someone else wants to have a problem with that then 1, that’s entirely a ‘them’ thing problem, and 2, they need a hobby - read a book, learn a language or whatever, it’s a better use of time.

"Hostile attitude", lol, so dramatic.

I’d love to find a council that would pay £2000 a week for residential care. More like £800. That’s not to say I don’t think childcare provision should be better funded, more flexible and easier to access for some women.

What's wrong, worried the outlet for the eternally miserable and bitter is being challenged.

It's hard to deny with housing costs and childcare cost that our society and in fact many western societies have made having children financially harder and harder which is likely contributing to falling birth rates.

However lack of support I think is wider - and is present with elder case and young kids or any vulnerable time.

It's very easy to get isolated in our society - especially if family isn't close physically or emotionally or you just run out of family members- illness and bereavement do that very quickly and I think there is a tone of judgment on MN when you don't have people to help with childcare or do hospital visits take on health and financial responsibilities in old age.

Will also say children are no guarantee against this isolation - one of the women on my course has two grown sons in 20s they ring but she lonely as her DP died few years ago she stopped work due to ill health -she very dependent on her sister for company and is doing things like the course and volunteering to fill time - she late 40s. Few years as DC leave for uni and start their lives anything happens to DH or me that could easily be one of us - miles from family we have due to work.

People talk of going into care homes or going to digitalis - and then when they get there find they feel very differently or talk as if healthy lifestyles guarantee to protect you from all illness/disabilities - it helps but often happens at later ages. I'd love to think I'd make rational long sighted decisions like move into sheltered accommodation or do clear outs before hand - but watching family it's not as easy as you'd think denial and hope are powerful blockers.

Someone giving their personal reasons for not having children, when asked, so not out of nowhere, is not scornful nor is it hostile to parents.