AIBU to ask how anyone affords to have children?

[NameChangedAgainn]

DP and I are in our early 30s and people keep asking when we're going to have children, we're on the fence but we can't work out how anyone on our salaries can afford to have children. We're aware time is running out as it were (both my mum and nan hit perimenopause by 40 so aware that it's looming).
Am I missing something obvious?
My salary is roughly £1800 after tax, NI, pension and student loans. DP's is similar. Full time childcare for one child would ruin us financially at £400pw around here (and that would involve one of us working less hours to do pick ups as it closes at 6pm, so one salary would drop, the only way I could make it work would be to do 4 days work over 5 days).
We don't have £400pw spare after mortgage (£1300), bills, food and transport (£1500 if we cut to no eating out or buying lunches and really budget). The money we currently have spare per month (realistically this is a few hundred, but if we cut back to the bare bones as above it would be almost £800) is mostly eaten up in saving for small emergencies, holidays and events (e.g. The clutch went on the car recently, the washing machine needed repairing the next week, then it was MIL birthday the following week).
Benefits calculator (I never thought we would ever have to claim benefits) says we would be entitled to £18pw.
The best case scenario seems to be us being about £1000 short every month and having no spare money for any unexpected costs. We are trying to save at the moment but don't have enough to even get through mat leave.

So as not to drip feed:

• We have no parents or family living anywhere near us that could help with childcare, we had to move away from family for work and then further away again to be able to afford a house.
• 23 years left on the mortgage on a small 3 bed mid terrace in a relatively non expensive area.
• We have one second hand car that we own outright and share.

We moved far from where we were renting (over 120 miles) got a mortgage on a small house and pay half what the rent costs were. I work evenings and nights so didn't have to pay child costs. Shift to homeworking for my husband helped massively with pick ups and drops off to school when I was knackered from a night shift. Now child is older I'm going back to 9-5. It's hard.
I do wonder what is happening to people's pension contributions and suspect there is a huge problem coming down the line when my age and younger can't work anymore.

I hadn't even considered the heating bill going up if we have a baby, that's such a good point although hopefully energy prices come down. We only use the heating for a couple of hours a day usually, with the exception of December when I was sick of wearing so many layers in the house, announced I was not wearing the oodie over my clothes, and set it to 18 all day. The energy bill at the end of December very quickly put an end to that.

Your electricity and water bill will also go up Op, please factor that in too.

saving for small emergencies, holidays and events

These things went, sadly-we didn’t save when the kids were small, didn’t go on holidays and certainly didn’t go on any events! Parents got invited round for birthday tea and cake rather than getting expensive gifts.

What jobs do you both do? Is there scope for part time/compressed hours/weekend working? What about promotion/pay rises?

I was lucky in that my parents could help with some childcare so I went part time, but DH was able to get a few pay rises then, which helped.

I completely empathise though-cost of living now is so high. The government had the right idea realising that something needed to be done about childcare costs but has implemented their idea so badly that I suspect it will only make things worse :( Don’t rely on any sort of ‘30 years free childcare’ as I suspect you will be disappointed.

We're already living well over 100 miles from most family members due to housing costs/job availability and it is a slog to visit them as it is.
We are going to think again about moving when our fixed rate mortgage is coming to an end, there are some cheaper areas a bit further out but there's no work there for us and the extra time and travel costs to our work (already over an hour each way in rush hour traffic) and visiting family is putting us off.
We had looked at relocating to a cheaper town up north but struggled to find jobs we could both apply for, and we would be adding another 100-150 miles each way on the trip to see any family members.

By events I meant thing like mothers day (both our mums are low maintenance but we will take them out for lunch and give them a bunch of flowers this year while we can afford it), birthdays etc. I have removed the saving for any emergencies, holidays and events from the budget though! Inviting parents round is a chore for them as we live over 100 miles from them, they don't like driving at night and we don't have the space to host them comfortably, they really do prefer we go to them most of the time.

We both have office jobs and wfh part of the week but we don't get to pick our office days so some weeks we have the same office days and drive in together two days, other weeks our days don't align and we drive separately and are paying for 4x the commute. One woman in my office does 4 days work over 5 days so she can leave early for childcare (the opposite of compressed hours), as the nurseries all seem to close at 6, this does give her a shorter day on a Friday though as she basically needs to work 4 hours.

Pay rises don't seem to be keeping up with inflation and there's no immediate scope for promotions for either of us but we are applying for better paid jobs elsewhere when we find them.

Wales isn't getting the 30 funded hours childcare anyway it seems. There's some funded hours here for toddlers, but my colleagues with children said that this caused nurseries to hike their prices as they get so little from the government for those hours, and with the cost increase they didn't actually have a large drop in childcare costs. I'm hoping England's 30 funded hours goes better than that!

@NameChangedAgainn you're right to feel worried about it all - it seems you either need to be a higher earner or. you need to be eligible for UC to pay towards your childcare costs. Definitely worth fiddling with the calculator.

The other thing I see in the info you've given is that yuo have 23 years on your mortgage - i would get in touch with a mortgage adviser/your bank and see if you can extend that to 30 or 35 years to reduce yoour payments in the expensive nursery years. Our adviser told us to do this and then overpay/reduce the term later on.

The other thing is that people can and do borrow money to cover the nursery years - I'm not saying it's the right decision but it's such a transiently expensive time in your life. Alternatively would family help with childcare if they were closer?

Because you are thinking about it now, and because WFH would help with start finish times I would definitely consider moving jobs and finding a fully remote position which does sound possible given your career areas.

And then finally I would consider compressing hours and start/finish times for your partner and you so that you can both still work fulltime. E.g. my partner works 8-4:30 and I work 8 thirty to 5pm. You can make it more staggered than that but it means one person does drop off and the other does pick up.

you're looking at all the right things where you can save money and it's true that COL has definitely outstripped wage growth. I'd also consider any way you can make a cushion of money before your mat leave e.g. a second job, selling stuff on vinted etc so that you've got a few savings behind you too.

If you have the financial means to be a SAHM and have carefree (not generally a thing with small children) days taking the toddler to visit your parents and inlawas and to the beach, then I don't think MN is stopping you. (Not that MN could stop you). But your thread is about not being able to afford to have a child even if you are working....?

TBH on the information you've given, if you want to be a SAHM, it sound fairly financial neutral in the short term (you'd be giving up your career and pension and other benefits of course). So might be worth running the sums. If you wnat to do that, moving somewhere where your DH can get to work without a car so you can get rid of one car) might also be something to consider.

But mumsnet has spoken and I should ditch the car and stop spending so much on petrol and move further away and have a smaller house.

Mumsnet has spoken?

You have literally come on here asking what people do to afford children to which people have replied with suggestions! If you don’t want Mumsnet to speak-don’t ask!

By events I meant thing like mothers day (both our mums are low maintenance but we will take them out for lunch and give them a bunch of flowers this year while we can afford it), birthdays etc. I have removed the saving for any emergencies, holidays and events from the budget though! Inviting parents round is a chore for them as we live over 100 miles from them, they don't like driving at night and we don't have the space to host them comfortably, they really do prefer we go to them most of the time.

Little things but if you travel to them and then go out for a lunch for which you pay, I’d take a nice lunch-rolls and cakes etc for with you and make it at their house-likely to be much cheaper.

I found a remote working job to save commuting costs, went part time 3 days a week and compressed my hours so DD only needs 2.5 days a week at nursery.

By events I meant thing like mothers day (both our mums are low maintenance but we will take them out for lunch and give them a bunch of flowers this year while we can afford it), birthdays etc. I have removed the saving for any emergencies, holidays and events from the budget though! Inviting parents round is a chore for them as we live over 100 miles from them, they don't like driving at night and we don't have the space to host them comfortably, they really do prefer we go to them most of the time.

Reframing your mindset is probably a big part of economising when you have children. It's interesting that you describe your mums as low maintenance but Mothers' Day involves over 100 miles of travel to see them, a bunch of flowers and taking them out to lunch. And that they never come to see you.
Alternate travelling or go less frequently. If you're the one absorbing the cost of travel, then they can pay for food etc. For things like Mothers' Day offer to do the cooking at their house.

If you have the space for a child, then you surely have the space to host 2 adults.

The only way we can afford it is by opting for a 2 bed flat over a house and by DP working evenings and weekends so he can look after DD 3 days a week while I did compressed hours. Hopefully with changes to childcare things might be a bit easier for you, but otherwise I would be looking at moving somewhere smaller/cheaper and thinking about if you can work more flexibly.

Honestly the lifestyle enjoyed by the older generarion from 1945-1990 wasn't sustainable esp if you are an average earner. We may have to take inspiration from the prewar generation for how life would be except women work now and so most households can't rely on a single earner even for basic living.

Think smaller properties close to transport links (less commuting, suburbia is a symptom of the post war boom which allowed workers to enjoy larger homes further out), more younger people living with parents, poorer families in house shares, more single children (record number during great depression) . Silver lining is consumer goods and european holidays have never been so cheap.

We are top 10% in terms of income but have calibrated our lifestyles - small flat, no car, probably single child (if we overcome our fertility problems)

£75 a day in our area, fairly standard here!

Is your mortgage portable?

I think the gov has provided equivalent funding to the devolved nations but it might take time for those plans to come through. So fingers crossed

I'd say £1500 per month seems huge for transport and food, are you able to reduce this at all especially as it sounds you wfh at least some of the time?

It is expensive, it's childcare that makes it so. Unfortunately we have had to accept that until our children are in school we just can't do luxuries like eating out etc.

It's not easy at all!

What about a childminder near to your works and both compress your hours if you can- say start at 8.30 and finish at 5.30 4 days a week with DC at childminder 8-6. If you can shorten your lunch break do that too. It won’t be full time hours and one of you will need to do an office day every child minding day and you’ll be doing a late and early commute home with a child but you’ll only need to pay for 3 days a week (less the tax free element).

If you start saving now for 6 months, then start TTC, you’ll have at least 16 months to save before your pay drops to SMP even if you conceived straight away.

There are potential solutions but they can be fiddly, we use paid childcare but are lucky to also have family help. It took us 4 years TTC to have DD after starting at 29, you never know how long it will take you until you try, if you really want a child I wouldn’t delay more than 6 months to a year max.

Our childminder...who was amazing...was 60 a day op. So not 400 a week.

And we are in london. Thats much too high a figure you are working on

If you decide you do want children, just do it and don't wait. You will make it work.

Advice like this doesn't actually take account of what life will be like for the child in the situation.

We all knkw children are expensive so what if the salaries don't increase to cover the increase in living costs? There really does seem to be this division on here sometimes where posters on a thread like this say go for it and don't worry about how you can afford it as they need little! Yet on other threads it's all how expensive children are.

Make up your minds. Either it's doable on a shoestring, or people need to have more money coming in than this couple do.

I've been that child brought up in poverty. It's not the fairytale some would have you believe. It's cold, isolating, difficult and humiliating. You're never able to go on the school trips, never have holidays, never able to bring a friend home for tea.
When you grow up, maybe go to uni, though that costs so much now that maybe isn't going to be available, you realise just how much you miss out on by having this basic and grim childhood.

It is the ultimate act of selfishness to bring a child into this world that you cannot afford to give a decent childhood - not fabulous holidays and activities every night, but not this basic rice and beans existence with no chance of any fun.

I think you'll manage it if you really want to have a child. We have similar outgoings but you will benefit from some funded childcare hours and also tax free childcare (up to £500 contributed from the govt every 3 months, so it is capped) things will be tight but its only for a little while bit it depends on how much you'd like a child really

Re: space for hosting two adults - our spare room isn't big enough for a double bed. It current has a single bed, a small chest of drawers that stores towels and bedding (no airing cupboard) and a desk for working from home. I would say it's big enough for a child but not hosting two adults.
The box room has a slightly larger desk as the printer is in there too, but it isn't really big enough for much else. It's one of those bedrooms you can barely call a bedroom, it would fit a single bed and a nightstand and be full.

Re: mums being low maintenance, we only visit them a few times a year due to the distance and cost and they always say they understand. We are talking a £10 bunch of supermarket flowers and a pretty cheap lunch at a local chain cafe not anything flashy. Regardless, I've assumed the mums would be fine without this and removed it from the budget for if we had a child, I've only referenced it in my post to explain why we don't currently as childless people have much spare money.

I am going to look into childminders although my colleagues said they couldn't find childminders when they were pregnant (and at the point of having to register for local nurseries). We work 9-5.30 already, so compressing 5 days into 4 would mean we working 8ish-6ish with a half hour lunch, being out of the house 7-7ish and paying for a longer day for a childminder. We don't get to choose our office days, it's based on business need. Next week I've been asked to attend meetings Monday and Tuesday but DP has been told to be in Tuesday and Thursday. We can both ask to go into the office extra days but there's limited desks so it depends who else has to be in (that was the same at my previous workplace too, a bit annoying when I wanted to be at the office for meeting friends after work).
We can ask about cutting our hours (there is someone at my work doing 4 days work over 5 days to get be able to do nursery pick ups) so I'm going to play around the the benefits calculator to see whether reduced hours would mean more benefits that could help cover the cost of childcare.

Thank you!! I'd like a child but I'd not like to raise one in poverty or get into so much debt that we never recover and can't give them the basics in life. Every time we look at the finances, I understand why so many of our friends have decided against having children.

It’s mad how different it is around the country - I was thinking how cheap that sounded! (I could never afford such a big house where I am!)