DD has been removed

[Flojoloco]

DD is 15 with additional needs. Things have been getting progressively difficult. Today she told her social worker that I hit her and there is a bruise on her face so they removed her. There’s a strat meeting tomorrow and I’ve no idea if she’s coming home or not either way it’s a mess. I either lose my DD or she’s at home and I’m scared of her lies. She’s 5’8” and 14+ stone, she has massive temper tantrums/meltdowns and puts holes in doors etc. I have no doubt if I ever hit her she would paste me. She lives a charmed life but she’s not very happy at the moment and that’s impacting massively. I would never hit her. I’ve no idea where the bruise came from. If she bumped her head on something or deliberately smacked herself in her face. I haven’t seen her but the photo on SW phone didn’t look like a bruise, she just looked blotchy. Either way we need help.

OP, this has been a terrifying experience for you in the context of a long history of very, very difficult parenting. My heart goes out to you. I genuinely would not pay much attention to anyone who's responding with reference to an NT child because what you have to do for your DD is not about disciplinary and consequence based stuff.

I can really understand why you want the LA to accommodate her, and they can't refuse to do so if you are definitely not prepared to do so yourself. The social worker knows that it would involve trying to find a family member or foster parent (probably tricky given your DD's presentation) or some sort of placement. But I am wondering how much your DD is currently getting by way of special educational provision. I think before you make a formal request on section 20, it would really be worth speaking to a solicitor who specialises in special educational needs, disability and social care to see what your options are.

It's brilliant that some of you have secured places with Adult Social Care. In my LA going forward they will only be assessing and funding people with complex needs. Their idea of complex and my idea of complex and other staff and family are totally different. Which means over the next 6 months the adults I support will have their support reduced to nothing. They will be signposted to other support services that are overstretched. My LA is bankrupt and the vulnerable members of our community have been their biggest target to save money. I dont know what to suggest OP but if you are to get any support its now. Try and stand your ground for your dds sake as much as yours.

I'm sorry to hear this, OP. Sending hugs.

To be honest I feel for the OP, not her daughter.
We could spend all day debating and disagreeing but at the end of the day the OP is the person suffering some unacceptable behaviour in her own home.
This was not a little lie she dished out, and I thoroughly hope that the OP now gets support for herself in this situation. If the daughter behaves in such ways then she is not fit to live in the family unit at everyone else’s expense and health.

None of this will help OP when she's lying hurt at the hands of her dd.

Massive hugs send your way . I think if you have other professionals involved, school doctors etc , they will also vouch for you . I doubt they will take her from you knowing she is so manipulative. Whatever happens you need to make sure her records shows she lies . Other way this is just another way if control for her .
Do you have any idea of what help you might want ? Would you maybe consider a residential school or similar where she would be home at the weekend ?

In this one post you’ve demonstrated that you have absolutely no concept of what we’re talking about here, despite the nature of ND being explained and expanded on by people who have experienced similar to the OP.

I’ll have one more go on behalf of everyone you’ve likely offended here with your judgement and lack of understanding. DD absolutely does enjoy the attention her behaviour brings. That is in no way connected with her ability to understand that actions have consequences, because the attention she receives as a result of her behaviour is not a consequence. It’s an effect - instant gratification.

And that’s all she sees. As has already been pointed out, the actual consequence of her behaviour is yet to come - the most likely being her eventual removal from the home. When that comes DD won’t have any idea of why, because her thinking is in terms of ‘if I do x (action) I’ll get y (immediate gratification)’,, not, as you seem to think ‘if I do x (action) I’ll get y (instant gratification)but eventually z (actual consequence of behaviour adversely affecting others)will happen so I’d better stop.

ND conditions typically affect the ability to recognise socially unacceptable behaviours. The behavioural issues are not simply ‘bad behaviour’ but a symptom of the disability and of needs which are as yet undiagnosed and unmet. Until they are and she receives the support she needs, the behaviour will continue. There is no free pass. There is no ‘wake up’ call. Any more than you can issue a wake up call to a physical disability. You treat it and hope for the best outcome to improve quality of life. ND is a disability, and should be treated as such, not punished.

That doesn’t make it any the less true, and you can’t fulfil the needs of one person by ignoring the needs of another. It will help in terms of OP understanding that her DD’s behaviour is a symptom of her condition and not deliberate, but I agree, OP needs practical help because she is potentially in harms’ way. Unfortunately it looks as though it’s going to be a long road to access any help if the attitude of the SW is anything to go by.

massive hugs- I had a similar story in my close circle.
the only answer was to let the child go - and for her to see how the life looks like

I know it feels empty, but try to find some entertainment to take your mind out of this situation

she needs to learn the hard way

They need to put in writing what returning her to you will involve.

Ask them if they are saying that you are a risk to your child then why are they insisting she comes back to you.

Point out they can't have it both ways. Either she's at risk in which case it is irresponsible of them to return her as they have a duty of care to her or they are saying she is not at risk in which case you need that in writing as well as them confirming they have no concerns and will not be involved.

Because what it seems like they're planning to do is return her to you and make you jump through hoops and follow plans and justify yourself because it's cheaper for them to do that than to provide care for her.

She's 15. It's against the law to place a child in a hostel/supported accommodation.

So we should lock away those who are ND, who have learning disabilities or other mental health conditions then ? Yes, the behaviour is unacceptable, but you seem intent on believing that DD has some control over it, when the whole crux of the thread is that if she is ND it’s a symptom of the condition. She’s disabled. The disability needs to be diagnosed and treated, as with any other. Not punished.

wow this thread is triggery for me. Love to hear how people with ND can’t possibly be abusive and, you know, just handwave abuse if it happens to you at their hands?

I’m NC with my sister because she is massively abusive - lying, aggressive, manipulative - you would not believe some of the things she has said and done. She is ALSO ND and traumatised and all the rest - but, so am I, and I’m not an arsehole. Some ND people, like some NT people, are arseholes, and imo if high functioning enough to learn, then ND cannot be used as a free pass for vile behaviour.

I hope op gets the best outcome for her and her daughter.

Consequences don't have to be punishments. If she breaks something e.g. her phone the consequence is she doesn't have a working phone. No one is punishing her it is just a fact.

It is also a fact that her mother also has needs and if their needs are incompatible something has to change. She sounds like she is being violent and intimidating her mother and the OP does not have to just accept that abuse because her daughter can't help it.

I do have experience of working with teenagers with similar problems who were in residential care.

Where did I ask for her be locked away? No where.
Maybe consider the OP posting here because her feelings and mental health are as important as her daughters.
As I said hopefully this will initiate some additional support because the current living arrangement is unsustainable in the long run.

I think you need to make it clear to SW that you are in carer breakdown, you are no longer well enough to care for her.
How soon is your daughter 16, which then means she comes under Adult Social Care?
I am a fellow Mum who last year put her 26 year old into assisted living through being totally worn out. We parents are the easy and cheap option to provide long term care, they will try and not do anything to help at every turn.,

The disability needs to be diagnosed and treated, as with any other. Not punished.

This is a serious question, because perhaps I've missed something — new developments in this field, maybe. What treatment for ASD do you have in mind?

I ask because I have an adult cousin never formally diagnosed with ASD but very clearly ND and in special education from 6 until 16. Now in his 50s and widely interpreted by HCPs as being ASD but never offered treatment.

And yet social services can and do place 14 and 15 year olds in ‘unregulated accommodation’ including hostels. They tend to be children who have high needs and have exhausted the options for other forms of care - residential providers are often unwilling to take in children with these complex needs and local authorities are forced to turn to the unregulated sector as a result. OP’s DD would likely fall into this category if no other placement is found.

What you're describing correlates more to intellectual disability (low IQ). The students I teach with ID tend to be completely unable to comprehend and extrapolate consequences apart from what is physically in front of them. This is a genuine issue that requires a lot of very specific conditioning.

As for ADHD, there's not much documented link with intellectual deficiency. In fact, students with ADHD can be incredibly perceptive and clever.

People with ADHD are not unable to comprehend and crucially, extrapolate future consequences. Rather, they legitimately struggle with impulse control whilst intellectually being capable of comprehending such consequences.

In my experience as a SPED therapist and someone with ADHD myself, witnessing natural consequences (with a safety net, NOT to a traumatic extent) can actually help with emotionally internalising causal links/consequences.

I also agree with this, she obviously is not able to restrain herself either emotionally or physically and I don’t think you should put yourself in harms way.

my strongest advice would be to not have her back until it is safe for you to be around her.

I don't understand the legal process followed by the sw for removing your child.
It reads as though she just took her with her when she left. Did the police remove her using their powers of protection? Did the sw apply for an Emergency Protection Order? Did you just agree that she could leave with the sw? If the last one then you have already entered into a s.20 voluntary arrangement because I can't see any other way the sw could legally have removed her except without your voluntary consent. The sw has also been negligent in not arranging for a medical to document the alleged injury. Bruises fade so it's important they're documented by a paediatrician. A sw taking a photo is not evidence. Did you consent to the photo being taken? Get yourself some legal advice.

Controversial but people with ASD tend to not be manipulative because our cognitive empathy isn’t very well developed. (Cognitive empathy means we don't understand people’s motives - it isn’t the same as emotional empathy.)

Personality disorders can’t be diagnosed before the age of 18 so they all get diagnosed with ASD instead from what I can see. It’s so insulting for those of us with ASD who absolutely do not seek out drama and attention. We’re usually the victims of people with personality disorders so it kind of stings.

That said, I’m sorry for this situation and am no stranger to abuse. I wish that abuse from child to parent wasn’t ignored but it is.

I’m going to share my experience again for those coming later and with the view that ND needs omniscient always be understood.
It is quite possible the dd has unmet needs AND is abusive towards her mother. I’m writing this as someone with three false teeth and a facial scar from a sibling with a similar presentation in their teens. It’s not as simple as people are making out, just meeting needs and all behaviours stopping.

OP. Channel your anger first into an email. Get it in writing, and communication in writing rather than the phone. When I took over my sisters care contact for a while this was vital. I was many many times told what I wanted to hear on the phone. It was then denied later. When she was discharged it was amazing what wasn’t recorded, I was gaslit once it was evident they wanted me to take her to my house.

Start by just emailing a summary of events so far as a record, and then state in bullet points why you cannot have her today. If you wish, what would need to be in place for this to happen.

I have no advice apart from being very stubborn, and stating everything in writing. Even if they call you, summarise the conversation and your points and email it. Expect to repeat yourself. I am not safe, she is not safe. Bullet point any questions you have as numbered points. Avoid generalising commentary.

A support package that includes SEN specialist support for autistic children struggling with challenging behaviour to help reduce it won’t help?

OP understanding that her DD isn’t trying to or deliberately hurting her, won’t help?

A support package that includes carer visits and respitr breaks, won’t help?

A support package that includes psychosocial therapy for the DD, won’t help?

A support package that includes counselling for the siblings, won’t help?

Access to parents of ASD children support groups and classes on ND parenting techniques that work with ASD children, won’t help?

Not worth giving it a go?

Is there any way you can get some legal advice as to where you stand? Sounds a nightmare situation and very mixed information.
Good luck