DD has been removed

[Flojoloco]

DD is 15 with additional needs. Things have been getting progressively difficult. Today she told her social worker that I hit her and there is a bruise on her face so they removed her. There’s a strat meeting tomorrow and I’ve no idea if she’s coming home or not either way it’s a mess. I either lose my DD or she’s at home and I’m scared of her lies. She’s 5’8” and 14+ stone, she has massive temper tantrums/meltdowns and puts holes in doors etc. I have no doubt if I ever hit her she would paste me. She lives a charmed life but she’s not very happy at the moment and that’s impacting massively. I would never hit her. I’ve no idea where the bruise came from. If she bumped her head on something or deliberately smacked herself in her face. I haven’t seen her but the photo on SW phone didn’t look like a bruise, she just looked blotchy. Either way we need help.

Not any organism lol, you have vastly over generalised there as there are plenty of organisms that have no consciousness, and many more that cannot socialise.

Repeating actions to get a desired consequence requires the person to understand consequences. Not everyone does when it comes to social interactions which is a VERY COMMON disability amongst autistic children and adults.

Yes they can understand fire=hot=get burn= don’t touch fire.
But social interactions of how not to be rude and how to control your emotions in a socially acceptable way is an extremely complex cascade of understanding consequences which does require awareness and higher thinking.

I'm quite shocked that so many posters are missing the fact that having SEN changes everything.

This isn't about personality. It's about additional needs and the need for support.

I am too. I am very surprised at the opinions that think SEN = deliberately being difficult, and ‘playing’ parents/others.

OP I feel for you. I've got two very, very difficult teenagers in the house right now, one of whom has told tall tales about me to a doctor. But if they were removed I'd be absolutely crestfallen.

That said, I'm not sure what to wish for on your behalf for the strat meeting. It sounds like it might be a good thing if she got some proper therapeutic attention, and you could do with a break from parenting her (even if it's a shock at first).

Well I hope she admits the lie, at any rate. And that she gets help learning about consequences, and about not seeking validation from creating drama.
Will hold you in my thoughts today.

You mean a desired effect, not consequence. If her repeated actions get her what she wants, that’s one thing - the need for immediate gratification doesn’t mean she has understanding of the consequences of the actions required to get it. Two different things.

I second that. The talk of ‘free passes’ for bad behaviour demonstrate a shocking lack of understanding of what ND actually means.

Hopefully the OP gets more help as a result of this.

@Soontobe60: whilst your sentiment not to engage in child-blaming is sound given the repellent attitudes on display on this thread, you are instead perpetuating parent-blaming myths and revealing your lack of understanding of neurodevelopmental conditions and their presentations in young people.

Children's Services have duties that relate to disabled children and their support needs (as distinct to child protection). 25% of autistic children display violent and challenging behaviour for which there is chronically little support for families and MASSIVE amounts of stigma and misunderstanding for families, the realities of which, impact upon maternal health too. Please do not add to this with the spurious suggestion there must be fault in the scenario. There are plenty of situations where young people's needs exceed anything a family can be expected to safely cope with on their own, but for which support is not made available.

OP: please consider taking advice and seek support for yourself; legal as PPs have suggested, but also Scope has a helpline for carers. It might be worth seeing if the ND assessments can be fast-tracked, given the challenges you are facing, as diagnosis may open up tailored support options (potentially including clinical psychology informed by a good understanding of neurodevelopmental differences, if that is what assessments determine). Can the SW talk to Health and try to expedite this? Perhaps also consider asking about respite care/short breaks for yourself?

Does DD already have an EHCP?

Most of all I would try and get as many well informed views as you can as to your and DDs options. There is of course a major bias towards the lowest cost options, because of funding pressures, but knowledge and evidence are power in the system.

Even a SEN thread here with families in similar circs describing their provision may be helpful in illuminating options (you may have to fight - but you know that...).

@Flojoloco

This is a very difficult situation and I feel for you.

Would it be possible for your daughter to be considered for a place at a different Residential School which cares for teenagers with challenging behaviour?

I gather that an application to one didn't work out, but could it work with a different school?

I'm not sure what is available, but I would like to think that the opportunity offered there would be good for both of you.

I'm sorry you are going through this. Horrible horrible times.

Try to use this as an opportunity to ask for support and help. I expect it are feeling guilty for not appearing to be the best mum, when the truth is you are. You've been worn down, this is daily trauma for you and it takes a heavy toll.

So go in with your head held high, you have done nothing wrong, you are doing the best you can in difficult circumstances. Use it as an opportunity to get some funding for care to help you look after your daughter.

Wishing you all the best.

Remember- YOU ARE FABULOUS

Why are you making it about you ? It’s not. It’s about the fact that it shouldn’t be voluntary. There should be proper state support - dedicated facilities for those who need them and more support for volunteers like yourself. No-one is criticising or asking you to do any more than you are already.

SW just rang. I am so angry. Now she is saying no one mentioned care. She is saying she said I needed to find alternative accommodation for her and can’t have unsupervised contact knowing I’m a single parent but apparently that was up to me and I could have said no. She didn’t say this. She didn’t tell me my rights. She made it sound as though if I refused the police would come next and there was be a shitstorm and cause more trauma.
I told the SW I want a section 20 because I can’t do this anymore and the SW refused. She said the LA will not agree to it.
So it sounds like they are just going act like nothing has happened and bring her home.
I told the SW that there’s no coming back from this and that I want them to accommodate her while they work out a plan but she just kept saying I have PR so I must take her back.

It's not that simple.

OP has disclosed that her daughter does not recognise consequences.

The difficulty with children with neurodivergent conditions, learning difficulties and/or learning disabilities is that negative behaviours are usually a response to an unmet need. People with Autism, ADHD, PDA and similar conditions are often in a permanent state of fight or flight due to the fact their brains cannot filter out excess information leading to a near permanent state of overwhelm and anxiety.

They cannot necessarily communicate what need is unmet, and they often cannot control violent outbursts because it is not misbehaviour, it's distressed and dysregulated behaviour, and even when a child has a decent level of understanding, it can take years to identify the triggers and teach a child to remove themselves or develop different coping mechanisms.

When it comes to behaviour such as lying, children with these conditions are often rigid and literal thinkers so will apply the consequence given in one social story or one social situation to all situations. They often can't recognise the depth of consequences can run either, due to a combination of rigid thinking and lower social and/or cognitive understanding.

For example:
-Parent says the family is going out to dinner after school
-The child is filled with anxiety because this is a change to routine

• The child cannot verbalise this anxiety they just know they want to get away from the change in routine
• The child remembers a social story that said that if a friend hits them, they should stay away from the friend.
• The child lies to a teacher that parent has hit them because if parent has to stay away for the rest of the day, they get to avoid the change in routine.
• The child is then told they can't live with parent at the moment because parent hit them
• Child remembers a social story, explaining that lying isn't good behaviour and can get people in trouble and make people not want to talk to them
• Child is scared of this happening so they double down on the lie.

-Childs needs are unmet because they are in an unfamiliar situation and feel unsafe

• cycle repeats itself

It's really difficult, and removing the child from the home isn't necessarily the best answer. Nor is it usually attainable due to the state of children's services around the country.

I really hope disability services step up and give you the support you need OP.

This is incredibly ignorant.

This sort of behaviour can occur with children with additional needs and I can tell you from my own experience with my own five year old who has severe ASD and LD there is NO help. He is stuck in a mainstream school for fuck sake. And trust me, trying to get him in a specialist placement us taking up much of my free time. Does that sound like a functioning system to you? It is no wonder children are suffering. They are not getting help or respite and parents are exhausted.

Of course you just blame the parents. Because it is far easier than actually engaging your brain and thinking of a solution or at least trying to understand a complex situation.

She kept saying but you’re her mum, you have PR. I told her that counts for f all when they are having strat meetings behind my back.
I told her I want her seen by a medic and her ‘injury’ assessed as well as the rest of her.

I was crying and shouting and swearing. They have never seen me like that. Maybe they will think I do lose my temper but I was just so frustrated.

Can you afford legal representation? I’d be very wary of taking this SW at their word as they’re clearly prepared to lie about previous engagements with you. I’d suggest you start recording your conversations (in person and phone calls) with them as a minimum.

What would happen if you tell them you’re afraid for your safety with DD at home? Are they now claiming not to know about the door punching etc?

https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/

I told the SW I was abused every day. I asked them where was their duty of care to DS when he was a child and being emotionally abused?
I told them I don’t feel safe but she just responded with you have PR, you are her mum, you have to take her back.

No Advice OP but a hug and a handhold x

hope you're okay OP. stand your ground. if you've been fighting for residential care and know you don't feel supported with her, then it sounds like you really do need her out of the house, at least for part of the week.

Could we please stop with the ‘actions have consequences’ lectures. It’s been pointed out ad nauseam that ND conditions can and do render the person unable to link their actions with the consequences. It’s not bad behaviour for the sake of it, a free pass to be an arsehole, enjoying the attention, or any of the other equally vile suggestions here from people who clearly have no understanding of neurodiversity.

ND typically robs the person of the understanding of socially acceptable behaviour and the resulting behavioural issues are symptoms, not bad behaviour to be punished - any more than you would punish a wheelchair user for the inability to walk. It’s a medical condition - a disability if you want to think of it that way. And as such, the person is deserving of the same understanding and support as is given to other disabled people.

OP stand your ground. This sounds horrific and exactly what I thought would happen today.

Why doesn't everyone stop arguing about the cause of the behaviours and advise the OP on what to do now she has updated. If you have experience advise!

OP, let me tell you a true story. I have a second cousin born in the 1960s who was recognised as having special needs. He's now nearly 60 and hasn't been diagnosed, but his GP and others who work with him all say they regard him as having ASD. After he left his SEN school at the age of 16 he was offered a place in a MENCAP community house. He tried it for a week, didn't like it and when his mum went to visit she didn't like the fact that they were all sitting watching TV during the day. She withdrew him and brought him home. Not long after this her husband died and she spent the rest of her life living with her son. She put on a brave face but it was clearly hell and there were times when he was violent and abusive to her — but by that point he was an adult and her problem to manage because there was no help anywhere for her. Her only option was to throw him out and she couldn't face the thought of what might happen to him. She died in her 90s a few years ago. Her last 20 years were particularly awful: he bullied and coerced her into giving him access to her money and spent every penny they had. No one helped. He was in his 40s and deemed to have capacity to manage his own life — even if he did it really badly and caused her hell in the meantime. The police didn't want to have to deal with him because they'd have to have him formally assessed and that costs money and takes time. Social Services were hopeless.

I tell you this because later in life my aunt had massive regrets about bringing him back from the MENCAP shared housing. My mum used to do what she could to support her and after Mum died I'd visit a couple of times a year and do what I could — including calling SS and various charities and begging them to help. My aunt always used to talk about the kind of life she might have had if she'd made a different choice. Every time she wept.

Others have already pointed out that this situation might turn out to be something positive and not the disaster it initially seems to be. You've got your daughter this far. Perhaps now it's time to think about the kind of life you'd like for yourself.

For one OP, do not view your DD’s behavioural challenges as abuse and that she is abusing you every day.

As pp have said, her behaviours come from unmet needs. They are not the deliberate, calculated or neglectful actions of an abuser.

I would think about the impact you are having on your DD. She has no idea why you won’t have her back. She cannot understand consequences, so she will only understand rejection.

I would tell the SW that you need support for your own safety and that of her sibling(s), so a full care needs assessment must be done and a package agreed on before your DD comes back home.