To wonder if DINKs will be more lonely when older?

[Aintbaint]

Ok, so hear me out. This isn’t an US v Them thread …
I have a lot of Double Income No Kids friends - for various reasons, mostly choice.
So for most career has been their main focus, followed by their partner… Most have been very financially comfortable, travelled a lot, able to afford holiday homes, successful work wise etc basically all the benefits of no kids!

But now we’re all in our late 40s and 50s and slowed down a bit, retired early, separated or divorced, Quite a few just seem to to have lost focus, seem a bit depressed or unhappy, and don’t have the same focal point that having kids can bring.
I stupidly thought that kids would get older and we’d have our independence back but obvs kids are always there in someways - you never stop worrying or thinking about them or doing stuff with them. So still that focal point in many ways and Indaynthat as someone who does have a FT job they like and hobbies…

YABU - of course DINKs are just as happy and not lonely etc

YANBU - it’s harder as you get older when it’s just you or you+partner and work isn’t as important or you retire

No I won't be lonely.

I have always known I would not be having children as I didn't want them from an early age and now menopausal and having been sterilised I know I will be on my own if my DH dies before me.

The thing is I have always been independent. Have always done as much diy as I can physically manage. Realised very early on that relying on myself is a good thing and yes I have a DH but I try to be financially and practically self sufficient despite this.

As for not having a 'focal point' is laughable. I live my life to the full. I am due to retire early this year and I can't wait for the next step on my life. I do not need children to fill any perceived gaps.

@SomersetTart

I agree with you that elderly people without children can be more resourceful, independent, switched on because they have had to be.

But there comes a point where even they decline. For one individual they had 5 calls a day for meals, toileting, washing, help to bed and so on - totalling less than 2 hours. For the rest of the time they were in the house alone handing out £20 notes like dolly mixtures to tradespeople and so forth to help. An overnight carer costs £120 a night… It isn’t affordable for most.

The gardener ended up having to scrape them off the floor on a number of occasions and ended up helping clean them up after a toileting accidents, do you think that’s dignified for a person who has been so accomplished and independent throughout life?? That was the point there was no choice but to go into a home which of course they fought against.

What you are missing here is that organising a lot of these supports is beyond the capability of many people particularly over the age of 80-85.

We had to step in and do so so much despite the team of carers, solicitors, gardener, cleaner.

Honestly it was a horrible situation. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But that is my experience.

@Robinni so what do you suggest then? We,what? Breed a baby we don't want? Resign ourselves to a shit old age? What's the point you're making here?

@Robinni *But there comes a point where even they decline. For one individual they had 5 calls a day for meals, toileting, washing, help to bed and so on - totalling less than 2 hours. For the rest of the time they were in the house alone handing out £20 notes like dolly mixtures to tradespeople and so forth to help. An overnight carer costs £120 a night… It isn’t affordable for most.

The gardener ended up having to scrape them off the floor on a number of occasions and ended up helping clean them up after a toileting accidents, do you think that’s dignified for a person who has been so accomplished and independent throughout life?? That was the point there was no choice but to go into a home which of course they fought against.*

You've just described the last two years of my grandmother's life (92 when she died), except she had two sons. One died before she did, and the other is my dad who tried his best to look after her but couldn't physically be there all the time as he had to work and sleep and have his own life. Do you think it was any more dignified for her to be cleaned up by her 60 year old son after toileting accidents?

I’ve worked in care - both residential and domiciliary. I know the score. Tough job but rewarding and a privilege. Anyway, I digress, I will still never burden my children and family with life admin that I could have planned for. Why would I not do something to prevent my children hardship? It’s selfish but some people do feel more comfortable demanding of family members. I have a relative like this. There’s no personal responsibility and planning ahead and they could well have done so. It was predictable and fixable.
Expecting others to run around after you because you gave birth to them is unreasonable. Obviously I would be sad if my children and family didn’t want to visit me and didn’t include me in family celebrations and life (as much as I could partake) but that’s not the same as expecting them to arrange and organise my life.

Do you think it was any more dignified for her to be cleaned up by her 60 year old son after toileting accidents?

I can't imagine anything more distressing for my MIL than my DH cleaning her. Of course a female professional would be less upsetting.

That you’re going to be lonely and suffering but that parents (like me) are obviously far superior because we have a team of slaves ready to tend to our elderly care needs. 😉 happy Monday!!!!

That is pretty much what you're saying, actually. Many a true word spoken in jest and all that...

Edit - sorry! Wrong person, major apologies!!! User named ending with i confused my Monday brain.

@SomeCatFromJapan

Out of my grandparents, aunts and uncles I helped to care for

Heart attack with hospitalisations prior: 2
Protracted chronic illness: 2
Cancer: 3
Care home: 4 (2 dementia, 1 head injury, 1 old age/covid - all siblings)

Genetics has a lot to do with it.
Arguably there was as much to cope with with some of other 7 who weren’t put in a care home….

At least when they are in a home you don’t have to organise their clothes, shopping, personal care, people to sort the house, medical appointments and you aren’t doing silly things like having to deal at 3am or 5am….

The care home is a relief.

And yes I agree with you they need to have the same options as elsewhere in Europe.

We had one instance where a husband was brought in, he was fine but very immobile… the wife couldn’t cope developed dementia, was brought into the same home but had to be placed with the dementia residents… she spent most days semi hysterical and couldn’t understand what was going on. It was just awful. If we brought her to him she didn’t recognise him. There was no family.

I’ve already answered this.

You need to make sure you have enough strong, trustworthy relationships with younger people as possible.

Be that a neice or nephew, or a good friend or colleague. Whatever. People likely to outlive you who can oversee that things are being organised appropriately for you and that you aren’t being hurt or taken advantage of.

Having a solicitor or a tradesperson isn’t enough.

I cared for my mother for five years leading up to her death, our roles completely reversed with me washing, helping dress, cleaning up 'accidents' etc. I did all her shopping, made all her meals, cleaned her house, and even lived with her for a while. It was exhausting, and soul-destroying and led me into a very dark place that at times I couldn't see any way out of.
I have two brothers who barely lifted a finger and one even went out of his way to make my life harder.
I wouldn't wish any of it on anyone, I certainly wouldn't have had a child of my own so they could do the same things for me.

@SomeCatFromJapan

My point in commenting on the thread was that I do think DINKs may be more lonely when older, certainly more vulnerable (if ill/elderly) and to give my reasoning as to why I think this.

But I may have just seen too many negative experiences at work and in caring for people without children in my family.

What you are missing here is that organising a lot of these supports is beyond the capability of many people particularly over the age of 80-85.

I'm not missing anything. The people I spoke about had made provision for themselves into the future at a time when they were still able.

Whether you have children or are child free the realities of extreme old age and ill health are equally difficult. The lack of dignity, the hardship....it's the same and is just what it is to live and die.

Be that a neice or nephew, or a good friend or colleague. Whatever. People likely to outlive you who can oversee that things are being organised appropriately for you and that you aren’t being hurt or taken advantage of.

But according to you that wasn't good enough as we'd be embarrassed to receive personal care from them.

Anyway again you're asssuming that everyone lives like you and is near relatives.

In all seriousness though, I have no wish to live in a world where I can't reliably wipe my own arse.

@innerdesign

My grandmother had all of us (including son in law) doing this for her.

Her sibling with no direct family had the more humiliating experience of an employee of opposite sex having to step up.

We didn’t want them to have to face this - but it was impossible because the grandmother went downhill at the same time - siblings close in age and of course our primary responsibility was to our direct relative who had looked after us all through the years.

@GalileoHumpkins I feel for you. I went through the same with my parents. The feeling of being utterly trapped was intense. You have no idea how long it will go on when you are in the thick of it.

I would not be more mortified and humiliated expecting my family to support me with personal care. After a serious illness, I needed personal care for months as I could not wash myself and there is no way I would ever accept it from my female family members, let alone male ones. I did occasionally let my mum give me a nice hair wash but I was fully dressed. Eventually I got a hair dresser to come over.
Being unable to care for myself felt very undignified and difficult but I preferred the health care assistants (I was in hospital) over my own family.

Be that a neice or nephew, or a good friend or colleague. Whatever. People likely to outlive you who can oversee that things are being organised appropriately for you and that you aren’t being hurt or taken advantage of.

I wonder how much actual living time is wasted worrying about this sort of thing that might never happen.

My best friend died suddenly aged 30. Sure, she had family around.....her two small children were with her. Her last words were to ask her eldest child (6) to go next door to get help.

Now that's sad. Not dying alone or being a bit lonely aged 80 when you've had a full life living the way you chose.

@SomeCatFromJapan

I don’t think you are getting this.

This person had the maximum support available in terms of female carers coming in without spending a few hundred a day for at home care.

They were not sick enough to go into a care home.

We could not duplicate ourselves to be there for this relative as they needed as well as our grandmother who was having similar difficulties… the situation of some siblings choices to not have a family impacted negatively on all - we could only be stretched so far.

Which invariably left this relative in the position of having a gardener have to clean up their mess because they were so isolated there was no other help available.

@Robinni

well thanks for that, I guess I’m thoroughly screwed because after 2 ivf attempts and 5 miscarriages I couldn’t birth my own servants. May as well end it all now while I can.

Gardeners are generally kind people who are used to clearing up other people's mess so I'm sure they did it with compassion.

@Tahinii

You should know this with your background for goodness sake.

The maximum number of calls available is 5 daily for no more than a few hours.

Most - even with excellent pensions and attendance allowance - cannot afford a 24/7 personal assistant!!

The family step in because the person doesn’t qualify to be admitted to a care home or because the wait list is 9 months long!!

Everybody would adore to have an idealistic situation where you have a personal 24/7 care assistant… it doesn’t exist at an affordable price point for most pensioners!!

In a hospital setting where you have had surgery fair enough you can get it short term…. But in the home environment - you know this - it doesn’t happen!!!

I think lots of people want to have a sense of meaning. For many DINKS this will be with wider family, close friendships, faith or volunteering/charity work. If they don’t have those things then yes, I think it probably would get more lonely.

But many do have deep relationships and meaning beyond their career. My sister has no children of her own, but is very invested in her neices and nephews, hosts refugees in her home and cares about her community (as well as the day job which she is less bothered about nearing retirement).

@SomersetTart would you like a work man to be coming in, cleaning you, changing you and washing down walls (because you’ve been rolling in it trying to get up)…… no, thought not.

Said person also took 2k off her because she was so embarrassed about the whole thing and came round sniffing for more when she died.

Honestly, you have no idea. It was used to financially abuse a person in their 90s!!

I'm going to have to steal a baby, aren't I?