To wonder if DINKs will be more lonely when older?

[Aintbaint]

Ok, so hear me out. This isn’t an US v Them thread …
I have a lot of Double Income No Kids friends - for various reasons, mostly choice.
So for most career has been their main focus, followed by their partner… Most have been very financially comfortable, travelled a lot, able to afford holiday homes, successful work wise etc basically all the benefits of no kids!

But now we’re all in our late 40s and 50s and slowed down a bit, retired early, separated or divorced, Quite a few just seem to to have lost focus, seem a bit depressed or unhappy, and don’t have the same focal point that having kids can bring.
I stupidly thought that kids would get older and we’d have our independence back but obvs kids are always there in someways - you never stop worrying or thinking about them or doing stuff with them. So still that focal point in many ways and Indaynthat as someone who does have a FT job they like and hobbies…

YABU - of course DINKs are just as happy and not lonely etc

YANBU - it’s harder as you get older when it’s just you or you+partner and work isn’t as important or you retire

Gosh OP, you really can’t bear for others to have a different opinion to you, can you? You are convinced that your way is the only way. Ironically, you’re the one coming across with an inability to deal openly with death. You cannot accept that others have different wants for their deaths than you have, you think we should all desire the death you deem to be best.

Once more, for the record, I want to die alone. I don’t want people sitting around watching me in my final hours, I want to be left alone in quiet and solitude.

Actually just remembered my friend's mum died alone and she lived with her! Found her in the morning, heart attack in her sleep overnight.

I think OP is working through some issues.

Ahhh I was mostly being facetious and pointing out that OP's handwringing isn't a huge amount of use to anyone who can't change their circumstances, and is pretty cruel to boot.

I won't mind dying alone because chances are I won't be aware of it anyway. It's for the living, not the dying.

I understand that for many death is a hard thing to deal with openly. The temptation is to either cover it, hide it, say you’d rather die alone than ‘inconvenience’ anyone or joke about it. Some cultures are more open than others, and after years of living in England I realise that that in general, this isn’t an open culture when it comes to death, dying, funerals.

I can't decide if this comment is weapons-grade insensitive or just bloody rude.

Just because you don't understand the nuances, subtleties, emotions, depth and rituals around death and grieving in England doesn't mean that they don't exist or provide just what people need.

Quite - you thought this thread would be full of parents slagging off childless/free people and it hasn’t turned out that way has it.

Most have been very financially comfortable, travelled a lot, able to afford holiday homes, successful work wise etc basically all the benefits of no kids!

Those aren't 'all' the benefits of having no children. They are merely the material benefits.

An insight into the workings of the OP's mind perhaps.

Turns out many of us parents disagree with her attitude.
Being a parent doesn’t make you any more immune to loneliness and isolation.

I have a dear friend with a huge family, including adult children and grandchildren and many friends and neighbours. She is a lovely person and was
always popular and well liked.
She is sadly still lonely as her health condition means she can rarely leave the house and often, she cannot get out of bed. No amount of visitors to her home makes up for her overall feeling of isolation and loneliness from the world that she cannot participate in.
Life can be hard and lonely for many people. You can be in a crowded room and feel completely alone.

I think, so long as they and their friends/siblings/cousins are in good health it’s fine and they probably have a better standard of life.

Where it gets tricky is later on whenever they develop health problems and become less physically able…. Their peers start to die off and they can be left marooned with no one to advocate for them. Very isolated.

We had the situation of caring for older relatives without kids in the family - on top of grandparents and parents as would be expected - it was exhausting… and difficult because they didn’t have close association with us (not nuclear family, never lived in the same house, so dealing with personal care was a nightmare they were so uncomfortable and embarrassed).

They thought that having money to pay for care home would solve everything but they needed a pile of support before and then on top of this from distant family to facilitate life. They resorted to bribing handymen, cleaners, hairdressers to do things for them too - because we didn’t have the capacity to be there to do everything as already dealing with our closer relatives and children. The situation was desperate and upsetting for all…

So yes, I think that DINKs will be lonelier than counterparts with kids, in the end. It’s a more precarious situation to be in and they have to form very strong associations with extended family or younger friends who are trustworthy to ensure they are ok…. In my experience the people we cared for got incredibly stressed out, anxious and distressed as they felt insecure. No matter how much we reassured them. This contrasted sharply to what we experienced with parents and grandparents who were relaxed and comfortable with us and that care would be provided.

This will be the exact same position for plenty of people with children though. My inlaws have three children - none live close enough to provide any of the assistence you describe. On that front they're as well being DINKS.

True they can’t provide personal support of living at distance.

But likely they will be able to communicate with their relative to find out what is going on and attempt to have their needs met.

A lot of it is admin - liaison with social workers and medics (which can be done via teams/phone), organising grocery deliveries, having to be visit for a few days during which time to organise carer, odd jobs, buying them clothes… the list is endless. Then you may need to be LPA to organise their affairs….

In short even if you live at distance you can sort out the shit and organise stuff for your relative - for instance that they get taken out to a lunch club or other activity a few times a week, that their hair gets cut, their feet attended to, their physio organised… you communicate with their friends to make sure people are popping in to see them.

Have a background as a carer and I don’t know anyone with kids who has been entirely abandoned - whether they live near or far at least one steps up to sort things out.

But likely they will be able to communicate with their relative to find out what is going on and attempt to have their needs met.

Not the easiest from a different time zone. No-one is going to be "abandoned", but there are limits to what is feasible.

Still not a reason to have children though - a long-distance secretary for end-of-life admin.

@Robinni

sounds like your relatives should have been more organised. Personally I’m going to make sure that I’m in the right place, with all the help I can muster, long before the shit hits the fan.

@SomeCatFromJapan

Everyone will make their own decisions and do what suits themselves.

Personally seeing what befell my relatives, and residents who didn’t have family and the level of indignity they sometimes suffered due to it did motivate me strongly to have a family.

They had pots of money and it protected them against nothing. I obviously wanted the experience of being a parent and to love and nurture children. But also, I didn’t want to lose having close relatives and friends when my parents/siblings/friends inevitably die.

@Robinni Personally seeing what befell my relatives, and residents who didn’t have family and the level of indignity they sometimes suffered due to it did motivate me strongly to have a family.

This is actually crazy to admit..?! I've never had the motivation to birth my own personal carers/servants. Also it relies on your children taking responsibility when you get older. My 'D'S is a piece of work, I can't imagine she'll take anything to do with my parents' care when the time comes.

@Chickenfeed67

They were highly professional, top of their game people, they had outlined which care home they would like and so forth…

But hadn’t anticipated the exact nature of their own decline (who can?!); one died suddenly which left the other screwed when they developed early onset dementia shortly thereafter and couldn’t advocate for themselves. One took a tumble and had a massive head injury, had to go into a home which left the other vulnerable… they then lived to a tremendous age and it was harder than they thought to direct proceedings whenever they were old and had health problems.

No matter what you organise in advance there is always more to be done and adjustments according to needs that need to be addressed. For example if you can afford a 24/7 carer and employ them when fit and able, but then they need to leave the job whenever you’ve gone gags, who sorts it out?

Not wishing to poo poo the DINK lifestyle, because it is fabulous. But you need to have several substantially younger, trustworthy people lined up to take care of you and your affairs at the end of the day or the existence is miserable and lonely.

@innerdesign

My grandmother had 3 kids. One was a knob. The other two, their spouses and offspring fantastic.

I absolutely wouldn’t want my kids to have to take care of me personally. But, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that they look after my interests and see that I don’t come to harm if ever I am too old or unwell to advocate for myself.

Genuinely, a lot of the residents I’ve seen and relatives I’ve cared without direct family have got themselves into some terrible states and been taken advantage of massively too. Witnessing it was sufficiently horrific for me to not want that level of loneliness, vulnerability and desperation for myself.

For some people, it’s not a bloody “lifestyle”, they’re infertile.

You can pay a solicitor’s firm to be Power of Attorney. You can have a cleaner and gardener and care agency. You can plan ahead by living in an accessible property and not a 3 storey house, for example.

I, for one, have told my children I will happily go into a care home. I didn’t have children for them to do my boring life admin when I’m too old to do it for myself. That is appalling! I hope they come and visit on my birthday and bring me cake though. Cake is always welcome!

And it's the CF women who are called selfish!

@Tahinii

My relatives did everything you described. Unfortunately, at some point you may have the experience of dealing with similar to myself or having to endure it yourself. All of those fixes are not sufficient and I feel you’re being somewhat naive about the reality of the situation.

But if that is what you think I hope it all works out for you and you are able to maintain that degree of independence.

‘ in my final hours, I want to be left alone in quiet and solitude.’

I’m sure there’s not a person in the world who wouldn’t want a gentle and quiet death, without pain or suffering or distress and discomfort, regardless of who was or wasn't with them.

I have worked in social care and social work for a long time. I know the ins and outs because I live and breathe it. I have planned ahead and will never burden my family. I am certainly well equipped. This is how I know you’re wrong. You don’t need to rely on the children you chose to bring into this world. I will never allow my children or family to do my life admin. I’d love to see them and spend time with them, of course.

@Tahinii I’m sorry but I too have seen it first hand through work and personally and genuinely there is a stark difference in the psychological well being of the residents, in their overall health, in the experiences that they have gone through prior to coming into full time care and so on.

Social services are not there frequently enough to get to know the residents personally, to see their lives on a day to day basis.

We can agree to disagree.

@Robinni What a patronising load of old bollocks. 🙄

I’m sure there’s not a person in the world who wouldn’t want a gentle and quiet death, without pain or suffering or distress and discomfort, regardless of who was or wasn't with them.

I mean my dad had family round him. They were freaking the fuck out because he'd just collapsed right in front of them while reaching into a cupboard, and was busy dying and making death rattle sounds, so if he was aware of anything that would hardly have been gentle and quiet.
He was an utterly considerate man and would have hated how distressed they were, primarily. But hey, at least he wasn't alone, right?

On a wider note, I'm sure I can't be the only one that doesn't particularly plan to be here when I'm at the point that I can't look after myself? I'm an extremely introverted and private person, who never feels loneliness, and I'd find having to rely on anyone else to that extend really distressing. I'm assuming, looking at other Western countries and the ever-increasing crises of an ageing population, that the euthanisia option will be there if necessary.

But also, I think people who have a care background are coming at this from a particular perspective. It is actually quite a small percentage of the population who for instance ever require a care home. Quite a lot of people just tick on okay and then get sick and die, or die of something sudden. I also don't think it's necessarily kind or in anyone's best interests to be kept going endlessly when the quality of life is no longer there.

@Robinni - did you really just write 'gone gags' to describe someone with dementia?

I've worked as a gardener for many elderly people

Something I observed was that where adult children were around to help, the elderly person allowed them to do so, almost gave themself up to a second childhood and relied totally on their children to run their life. Many of those children were on their knees with the burden of it. This was me and my parents - it nearly broke me for a decade. Hard to admit it, but the relief when they died was shocking.

The child free people I worked for - whether because they had no children or those children weren't around - were a different bunch altogether. Switched on, independent and organised. More willing to do things for themselves and had put in place around them an army of carers, solicitors, tradespeople etc to make their lives tick. One lady even paid a 'companion' who would call around at 6pm to pour her a sherry and talk to her about modern things and show her how to use modern technology.