To veto DH taking baby out on push bike?!

[Amidying]

We have a 19 month old son. DH has got it in his head that at some point in the future, he is going to take DS out on his push bike with one of those seats that go on the back of a bike! Now he hasn’t specified what age DS would be but it would be pre-school age by the sound of it. I have said no way will I allow it as it’s not safe. This is not an essential mode of transport either, so I totally understand that for some people there is no choice but to travel this way with their child, but we have 2 cars! This would be to ride a short distance on the road to our local park or beach which is about 10 mins, but I still can’t get onboard with the idea.

I said to him: We have just spent £300 getting the safest car seat we could afford and you want to take him out on a push bike before he can even ride a bike himself?! He reckons I am being the overprotective mother and it will teach him road safety and help him learn how to ride a bike responsibly. I reckon he is insane and we are at a standoff.

His argument is that his dad did it with him when he was little and it’s one of his earliest happy memories, which is all lovely but we have come a long way safety wise since then. When I was a kid people used to smoke next to me, car seats weren’t a thing, my cousins and me used to pile into car with some of us in the footwells! So where does it end? We have to move with the times surely?! I would prefer to teach DS to ride when the time comes and when he reaches the right age he can do a road safety awareness course or something, I dunno. I hadn’t really thought about it because for me it’s way off into the future!

UABU= chill sista, let them ride
UANBU= its insane and unsafe

YABU. Mine were on the bike from about 9m. We had weerides though so they are sat in front of you. It is much better for balance but also feels a bit nicer than at the back as you can chat along the way.

That's fair enough but I'm only going off what you've posted here. Your OP says veto and then you use the word allow. So it's not surprising that I interpreted it the way I did. FWIW i think there is definitely a discussion to be had.

I'm actually shocked by these responses, especially given how anti-cycling MN usually is!

I'm a keen, competent cyclist, as is DH...and neither of us have dared take our toddler on a bike seat. The idea terrifies me. I see how twattish and careless drivers can be when I'm out cycling by myself, so I just wouldn't feel comfortable exposing her to that same risk. Whether it's rational or not is kind of irrelevant, it comes down to what you feel comfortable with. Fortunately DH and I are on the same page about it so it's just not something we've considered. It'd actually be ideal as nursery is a couple of miles away, but I wouldn't want to cycle with her at rush hour on either of the roads that we'd use to get there.

I do think the trailers are better as they're much more visible, and they'd make cars more likely to give you a wide berth when overtaking. So maybe that's worth looking into?

I don't think people who use them are unreasonable at all by the way, and I'm sort of envious because it would make total sense for us to do it. But it comes down to your personal comfort level. I don't think either you or your DH are being unreasonable, and hopefully there's a compromise here that can work for you both.

Thanks. The reason I like the idea of trailers is the fact they are more stable but they are still behind DH which does worry me, so he wouldn’t be able to see if DC had unbuckled himself or if something was wrong. On the other hand, seats that go at the front keep the child hidden from drivers behind you so they may not drive as considerately. I can only see the pitfalls of all of the methods tbh! This is just how I think, I suppose. I am generally a ’worrier’ type of person though, and that is why I posted my OP as I can never tell if I’m being OTT or not! I am aware I will sometimes need to get out of my comfort zone but when it comes to my child I feel like that is much harder.

OP here’s a fact sheet which gives some guidance on types of seats/trailers.

https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/cyclists/child-bike-seats.pdf

in response to car seats versus bike seats there’s really no comparison. An improperly restrained child can be catapulted out through a windscreen in a car going 70mph and with the added kinetic energy of getting hit by another 2 ton vehicle. Bikes are never going at at speed or allowed near traffic going at that speed. It’s just not comparable. It’s more likely there’s a small spill at low speed and the seat and helmet will protect the child. Unless there’s dangerous junctions where it could be a higher speed collision. Junctions are where the vast number of serious accidents involving cyclists occur.

Many parents will get the safest car seat and then pack devices and other objects in the back seat of a car that in a collision become projectiles that kill and injure children. But rarely consider that as a risk. It very much is, and one that many people take every day without a second thought. Or use their phone whilst driving their kids so they are distracted from the road. To me those are both unacceptable risks. Fact is, more kids are killed in accidents as car passengers, than as passengers on bikes. Clearly there’s a vast differential in volume but if bike seats were really that dangerous they’d be banned from use on roads.

It is so condition dependent, not all roads are that safe to cycle on, a lot depends on the handling and competency of the cyclist, road conditions and the general prevalence of cyclists, are drivers expecting them to be there and checking etc?

In areas where there’s more cycling it’s generally safer, where there’s a perceived risk people tend to revert to driving ironically making roads more crowded and polluted and therefore putting their children at more risk of being in a collision or exposed to pollution for longer and certainly posing more of a danger to pedestrians and cyclists -some of whom will be children.

I’d say cycling with kids has so many benefits and is a quick and convenient way to get around and explore areas like parks that are harder for little ones to do on foot.

Is there a local cycling group you could contact to see what others think of the route your DH is proposing? There may be other cycling mums that could give you insight on whether they’d be worried about the ride or particular junction.

I think for me it would depend on the road. I know you've said B Road but you know it best and will get a good sense of the road conditions and danger for cyclists. It seems most people think yabu but a lot are probably thinking of cycle paths and quiet residential roads, which it sounds like is not applicable to your situation. I'd try to come up with a way to deal with the junction safely.

Thanks for your helpful response and I agree that a lot of risks are involved with children in cars too, but a car hitting a bike is definitely going to be more risky than a car hitting a car in the same scenario. I think my main worry is the junction that DH would have to do a right turn at. He would have to do that turn in a car or on a bike, so in my head it’s safer in a car. I get what you’re saying about high speed crashes but the road in question isn’t a motorway so I should hope nobody is travelling at that speed, and if they are I would much rather my DH and DC were in a car anyway.

I guess I could contact a local cycling group but I imagine it’s going to involve actually joining up and getting to know people as it would be a bit bizarre contacting people out of the blue for advice and then disappearing, so it’s not like it’s going to give me a quick answer but may be worth doing at some point if DH still has his heart set on it (if I haven’t killed his dream 😂). I don’t see many cyclists on the route in question either so that doesn’t help much.

That's where you'd be wrong.

I drive a dreaded 4x4 and my view of what's several feet in front of me on the street is non-existent. Low objects like those chariots would not be possible to see if one were to come loose room the bike.

A child or toddler on the back of a bike with a fully grown man otoh - very visible and imo far safer than anything trailing along behind the bike.

I think you need to try to relax about your H's plan. Your H can make sure they wear helmets and that DS is always proper buckled in.

He sounds like a good dad, eager for little adventures with his LO.

This.

Zero protection?

@Amidying yes a higher speed collision or getting t-boned at a junction your child would be safer in a car. However mile for mlle most cycle journeys are safer than in a car because of the speeds and likely infrastructure. If the right turn involves pulling into the other lane and turning across traffic then I personally would use the pedestrian crossing if there’s one, and did this when my kid was on my bike. On my own I’d just pull into the lane, but I didn’t feel as safe doing it with my child, so this is a reasonable concern. As long as you cycle considerately around pedestrians and there’s room nobody is really going to complain, even though technically you’re not supposed to. There’s a lot that can be done too about thinking of the time of day, are there times when it’s less busy or more busy which may impact how safe it is? Statistically school run time/rush hour has a higher chance of an accident than on a Sunday afternoon, for example.

By cycle club I meant like LCC or similar (LCC is London based) there’s lots of groups for promoting cycling and active travel which is more pertinent than a competitive cycling club, there may well be one in your area and they often can do guided or buddy rides or help with route planning. Perhaps start with the council to see if there are groups about or your local Facebook group (steeling yourself for the anti cyclist comments).

With regards to not seeing cyclists on the road you often won’t, they can travel faster than traffic and clear the road quicker, much like railway tracks are most often empty even though trains do pass along. This depends on the road and of course you may be right and it may be quite dangerous but if your DH cycles it and thinks it’s ok, you could be overestimating the danger, equally he could be underestimating, none of us can tell so that’s why personally I’d seek advice of other cyclists who aren’t racer/roadie types. Or if you can and you’re competent at handling a bike, do it yourself a few times to see how it feels before agreeing.

nearly everything has risks but honestly there’s nothing like being out and about on a bike ride with your kid and non cyclists tend to overestimate how dangerous it can be. So if you can make it work, do.

Yesterday I cycled 27km with my DS who’s just turned 12 including around Central London - up the Mall, around Trafalgar Sq, down the Strand, Piccadilly Circus and Regent St and if was amazing, but we were part of a thousand strong group ride. Would I do that with him on my own? Not all of it- certainly not Trafalgar Sq or Piccadilly Circus, the other roads, probably. All depends on the conditions. But to be part of the city, him pedalling under his own steam and not a passenger isolated from it like that was amazing.

Very normal.

I grew up in Cambridge, bicycles and kids every where!

Because being on the back of a bike, strapped in with a helmet and travelling at 5-10 mph max on a separate bike lane isn't the same as being driven at 70mph in a 1.6+ tonne vehicle along busy roads ...

What when there is no pavement? We have plenty of roads where that is the case. So therefore pedestrian are in the road. HOPEFULLY facing oncoming traffic

No wonder Dutch children are happier. Maybe start to think about what you can do to change things in your town so that it’s more normal for everyone to bike to the beach than to take the car.

You should take a holiday to The Netherlands.

The whole country moves like that and with kids a lot younger too.

Oh come on, it's set up for that to be safe. It certainly isn't here.

OP, YANBU to think only cycle paths etc, not busy roads.

Who would put their tiny, mostly unprotected child in the middle of moving traffic?

Dutch children are happier because they go on the back of bikes? 🤣 fucking hell

YABU.

Actually quite a few studies back up the impact of mental health, focus and behaviour in children who actively travel to school. Probably not specifically on younger children in seats but is certainly less passive and does help prepare them for cycling themselves later on.

I rode with my son on my bike in a “wee ride” seat from the age of 12 months old! He loved it and so did I. I can highly recommend the “wee ride” seat as it’s mounted over the cross bar so if anything were to happen then your wee one would be protected by his father’s body.
Much better and more fun for the child too as they can see where they’re going and feel like they’re in control!
It sounds like you need to trust your partner and let him do something fun with your child!

Since safety is OP's main concern: front seats are not as protective (around child's body, can't be that protective or they create a dangerous sail in front) as rear seats. Also, the front seat means child is much more exposed to the wind, so child gets colder/needs more wrapping up. Rear Seats may recline which is handy if child falls asleep. And rear seats have better centre of gravity position, on stiffer part of the bike. So on balance, rear seats are better & safer.

Rear seats come with 5 point harnesses typically. I'd note that OP can't see if child has undone their harness in a carseat in the rear of the car, either.

Trailers make bikes more unwieldy, so often not superior for safety (imagine need for evasive maneuvre, and trailers may not be highly visible). And storing a trailer is a faff.

The width of the road he'd be cycling on, width for a variety of road users, is what matters, along with visibility motorists have to plan overtaking, and OP hasn't commented on either how straight road is or the road width I believe. Otherwise, OP is describing a 10 minute cycle ride, 2 mile each way journey all on roads with speed limit <= 30mph. My babies were doing longer journeys on back of bike by 8 months on busier roads....

Having to strap kids into cars every morning is my idea of hell

If it's the particular junction you're worried about are there pedestrian lights? What if DP got off and pushed the bike to cross at the lights?

There are no pedestrian lights anywhere near the turning I’m talking about. The nearest pedestrian lights would mean he would have to cycle into the town centre in the wrong direction to the beach and also into busier roads so would defeat the object. I also wouldn’t imagine it’s that easy to hop on and off a bike with a toddler attached to it. I would imagine pushing it while walking may be a bit of a nightmare due to balance, otherwise I would suggest he gets off the bike and crosses as a pedestrian would a couple of metres from the junction and then walks on the pavement until he clears the corner of the road.