To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

Yanbu. Your job is being a tutor. Your student asked your professional opinion and she got it. The fact you are working for free for family doesnt invalidate your profesional opinion.

Imagine her applying and getting rejected and asking for feedback and the backlash when the school politely insinuate that the tutor was either lying or inept.

I'd have thrown my toys out of the pram and said I think it's best I dont tutor niece in future as if they dont want my professional opinion when I'm explicitly asked for it then they cant trust my tutoring skills.

Erm just wondering what kind of an aunt says id be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me? That said I think you meant well but maybe you think your opinion is gospel when maybe you should have asked or pointed out that if its something she really wants to do she should give it ago and give it her best . even being invited for an interview there is a big deal, not sure why you felt the need to say don't do it, is that even your call? As for your brother letting his wife speak to you like that as you say, are you one of those ppl who thinks inlaws should be seen and not heard? He can't control what she says to you anymore then he can control what you said to his daughter.

Indeed!

Tutoring skills aren't synonymous with an understanding of the Oxford admissions system.

Yes, exactly.

This person is a great example of a good candidate. Someone who is doing more, challenging herself, and has raw talent. It is not about grades. It's the attitude to learning and doing it regardless

Let's flip this around. If OP had said "That sounds like a great idea, I'd be so proud! I bet you could do it too, you're really smart" and then DN HADN'T made it into Oxford (which it sounds like she'd struggle to do as things stand) then SIL would be straight on the phone screaming that it's ALL OP's fault for getting DN's hopes up and why didn't she tutor her harder and teach her better?

yeah you crushed your DN's dreams - maybe they should get a new tutor

No-one involved in Masters-level admissions is interested in whether someone is an all-rounder. The very best universities for a subject (and Oxford & Cambridge, who aren't always at the absolute top) will want: demonstrated interest in the subject; maybe suitability for doctoral research; the right grades; and the ability to pay fees and for the student to support themselves financially. The good ones will want the right grades and the ability to pay fees. The rest will want the ability to pay fees. That's it.

You know OP I always think if one has the time and inclination to go through the process there's no harm in applying. All she has to do is write the PS and admissions essay (and whatever else). If she gets called in for an interview then she's in with a chance isn't she? If not she's only wasted her own time.

Now, if the question has been, does she have a 'good chance' of getting in probably not. Personally I'd have made her do her own research - look up the admission stats and results of those admitted. Let her come to her own conclusions.

But these days with the emphasis on widening participation there are concessions made even for Oxford.
For example , they have a free foundation year for disadvantaged students, your niece has dyslexia and if late diagnosed she meets one of the criteria. Maybe the others too who knows?
https://foundationyear.ox.ac.uk/eligibility#collapse3816766

I was going to say something along those lines, but I know she likes me tutoring her and also they couldn’t afford that much tutoring if they had to pay for it. I don’t want to cause my niece issues because of my SIL. To be fair my SIL will probably call me tomorrow and either pretend nothing happened or she will want to talk about it properly which is fine. Normally in these situations she will kick off at someone then she will clam down, talk it through with DB or someone else and then be willing to have a conversation and normally be pretty reasonable.

If you're not good enough, you're not good enough. Enough of this mollycoddling. I am not normally one to talk about 'Gen Z are useless' etc, and indeed I don't believe it, but one thing that has changed from my day is that people seem not to realise that some standards are absolute. It's all about how you feel rather than objective facts. Sometimes one needs a cold hard splash or reality.

I know myself as a teacher and a sixth form tutor, this can be a really difficult situation to be put in. I normally would never say outright to someone that they won't get in. Rather, I would phrase it something like 'oxbridge look for xxx grades and xxx extra curricular etc., so do you feel you can work towards that'?.

I know it's hard sometimes when you're faced with people who you know realistically won't stand a chance, but it can be difficult sometimes to be seen as the person who is 'destroying' their dreams, which is why I prefer to leave them to figure it out for themselves.

Several GCSEs lower than 7s though? I doubt it - 7 is equivalent to an A. I work in uni admissions.

Speaking as someone involved for many years in Oxbridge admissions: this is not the case. Oxbridge (and as far as I'm aware most British universities) are not interested in all-rounders, but in people who are academically suited to theIr chosen subject of study: not mainly in the sense of having learned a lot of facts, but in the sense of being able to think deeply about the subject and to demonstrate potential for learning, as well as motivation and interest in the subject.

Interviews are structured to try to assess the applicant's ability to think about problems related to their subject. How successful interviews actually are in achieving this aim may be a matter for debate; but this is the goal. An applicant who spent time during an interview talking about themselves outside the subject could well be putting themselves at a disadvantage. And nowadays at any rate, rowing or other sporting prowess would never be a criterion for selection. A selector who used such criteria would be at risk of disciplinary proceedings.

This doesn't mean that being good at sports or having other interests would disadvantage an applicant; certainly not! But interviewers are looking for academic potential in a particular subject; not in an applicant's non-academic characteristics- to do the latter could even be considered as a form of discrimination.

From what I've heard, some American universities and programmes may be more interested in extra-curricular interests and non-academic personal characteristics; but it is not nowadays generally the case in the UK,

First and foremost she is an auntie. That isn’t a job. As an aunt I would want to support my niece as much as I could. I can’t imagine telling any young person outright that they weren’t up to a particular task. Any good tutor allows them to discover that for themselves by putting themselves out there and facing rejection.

Also, ime people who always tell you that they were just being honest usually have some sort of agenda.

Completely helpful. My son thinks he will breeze into Cambridge to do medicine and it's just not being realistic for various reasons. With a lot of work and luck he may get in to do medicine but definitely not at Cambridge. I'm relying on the summer school to guide him with applications. That's part of what they help with. They will tell him where he is likely to get a place (if anywhere). Telling him he will get Cambridge would be a wasted choice unless things drastically change.
So you have done the most helpful thing. She can put down realistic options.

As an alumna I can assure you that we use the portmanteau phrase regularly. It’s useful when referring to admissions as it’s not possible to apply to both Oxford and Cambridge in the same year, and although the universities are distinct the admissions processes are sufficiently similar that separate preparation guidance isn’t necessary.

Do you really only know female graduates of the two universities?

She asked for your opinion and you gave it.She didn't like the answer.

My neighbour told me her grandson's cousin was super clever. Her mother had told her sister and my neighbour. She said it to me as the child was where i worked. I had to hedge it by saying I hadn't been working in that class recently. Although she was a sweet child she was certainly not as clever as they thought. Some parents are disillusioned. Your SIL might be one of them.

Next time maybe discuss other Uni's that you think might suit her better. Encourage her to visit as many as she can. My colleagues son was asked to visit Cambridge years ago. He went down and no one showed him around. His 'buddy' took him to one thing then left him. He didn't know where to go for meals and received very little information about the course. He was a very clever lad and worked hard he got 100% in his A Level Maths and 96% on the Higher paper plus a good pass in Science and English.
He also visited Durham. He got a great welcome and lots of activities had been laid on for the students. He went to Durham and loved it so much he now works there. I think she needs to find the Uni that suits her rather than because it is the "right' one to go too.She needs to visit I started taking my daughter at 16 and she learnt a lot about the courses from speaking to tutors and students during Open days and that is what helped her choose and she was lucky that she gained places at all her top three choices and chose the one that she preferred but chose a different course to her original choice. She had applied for it as back up but after visiting decided that was a more suitable course for her.

I think you were completely wrong, you are nobody's God. You just say well it is difficult, this is what is required, this is where you are, if you can up the ante then you have a shot at it. I can't bear people like you - a 'know it all, who tells it like it is (the 'is' being the egotistical bias). Such a depressing outlook on life; we lift young people not shut them down. They can find stuff out on their own.

She can't apply on Bs anyway so SiL can talk till she's blue in the face and it will make not a blind bit of difference. Tell her to take it up with the VC of Oxford. Haha.

That’s a badly written post for a tutor.

Well anybody can apply even if they get all D's. It's not a dropdown form that turns red and prevents you from submitting if your grades are less than the minimum admission requirements!

Whether they get in, or even past the first sift is another story.

I think perhaps your delivery was not really very nice, and to be honest, you never really know what may change over the coming year. There's no harm in trying to apply, but perhaps it would have been more encouraging to really boost her by giving her guidance to increase marks by guiding her in the areas she needs to develop in the coming year to help elevate her marks, rather than smother her ambition now. Tell her the requirements by all means but it's unnecessary to smother her flames, gently support and guide. Obviously she'll need to add additional universities when she applies too! If/when she doesn't get in you can support her by explaining her PG options then

I think it's important to give realistic ideas to children. DS2 had a sporting event recently. He got to represent his school. He was hoping to got past that level but it was not realistic. I talked about what might be realistic for the day. I talked about how amazing it was he was already getting to represent his school and what an amazing thing it was that he was part of it.
He had a great day. Cheered for his team mates. Also so friends.from outside of school compete. He was pleased. We could talk about what he might do between now and next year to improve to see if he goes to the further level.