To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

Yes she normally has to get written permission to speak or leave the house 🙄

Obviously not, but it’s a bit annoying he didn’t speak up while she was screaming at me when he texted me “totally agree with you by the way I’m glad you told her” within minutes of the phone call ending. No, I don’t want my SIL to have to get permission for her husband to speak. I’d just have appreciated in that moment him backing me up since he agrees. I know he won’t do that because he wants to keep the peace with his wife, frankly we all want to keep the peace with her.

In an ideal world I'd have talked about the neeed for predicted As/A* s in everything to get as far as interview, and asked her whether she thought that was likely to happen by September. Then work the conversation to the point where she recognised for herself that it wasn't an option. But it sounds like the question was unexpected and you didn't have time to think

Applications for Oxbridge have to be in so much earlier than UCAS applications that there's really not much room for her to jump from Bs and Cs to A and A* potential.

I don't think it matters whether she gets in or not. It's very hard to get into Oxford. It doesn't mean you can't try. There's nothing wrong in giving it a shot, if that's what she wants to do. If her application gets rejected then fine, she'll get over it. The last thing you want is her having resentment or worse, regret down the road that she took her aunts word for it and didn't try. Better to try than to live with "what ifs".

Also OP, the "frankly we all want to keep the peace with her", sounds like you don't get along with your SIL. Don't know if you're biased or if there was an agenda!

Tbh, I don't think it was your place to crush her hopes like that. You're family. She just wanted support and encouragement. The rejection from Oxford would have been hard on her, but not as hard as having your own family tell you you aren't good enough.

I don’t get along with her as a person but she’s a good mum and she loves my brother so that’s the main thing. We accept we are different people and can get on well but it’s as acquaintances not friends. We haven’t had the turbulent relationship a lot of people have with their in laws but that’s probably because we kind acknowledged early on we will never be close. I want what is best for my niece and so does she, but I honestly can’t be doing with her when she shouts.

They are definitely not the only criteria, particularly for Oxbridge as that is how they distinguish between candidates (they’ll all have A* grades).

DD attends a very normal sixth form (year 12) in the North of England. There are no grammars or selective free schools in our county. It appears to me that her college clocked potential Oxbridge material within a week of arriving. They're timetabled an hour and a half a week with the aim of securing places there and other top Universities.
Also, DD has three 'calls' per week (roughly 90 mins) with Cambridge already with a view to attending a Summer School this year. I know she puts a lot into this opportunity. The chance to even try for one of these places was only offered under a strict criteria.
She gained all 7s (two 7s in unrelated subjects to that she'd study, she loves science and maths) and above at GCSE and is predicted all As and above at A-level.
Even with that good start, DD knows her chances of being accepted are very slim. I know they don't do contextual offers on grades, but I was told her being a young carer would hold some weight because it limits her scope for enrichments and things like internships.
Maybe your niece will play a blinder but it's very unlikely she'd get an offer, that's based on her grades so far.

Agreed

(Another Cambridge grad here, with a wide variety of Oxbridge friends - and plenty of non-Oxbridge ones too of course.)

I feel like it would have been different if it was a long term goal but she’s never mentioned it before, never shown interest in it. There are two unis she has consistently mentioned, and a few others she’s talked about. If I didn’t think she was going to get into one of the unis she had been talking about long term it would have been a very different conversation.

I don't think it matters if it is a long-term goal or just something she decided on that morning. You could have encouraged her to try her best, while keeping her options open, instead of telling her she isn't good or smart enough for Oxford. Because that is what she heard from your words.

You SIL is BU. There are countless kids with straight A results and a list of extra curricular activities who don’t get in.

there are so many applicants and so few places that is really is a lottery- even for stellar students.

If she is getting B’s with the odd A and C, then she has no chance. But she will be able to be as successful in the real world.

i know lots of oxbridge grads who despite being very capable, clever, and good at their jobs have fairly average careers. That’s just life!

Well, at least she didn't do what DS did and spectacularly misunderstand a throw away line about organ scholarships on a Step Up day - he spent several months convinced he was going to Cambridge because he would occasionally bang out a hymn or two for the village church when the regular chap wanted a lie-in ...

What has being an only child got to do with it?

In fairness, if she wants to have a shot at Oxford, she’s going to have to deal with discouragement, a low chance of success even if she makes it to interview AND, if she actually gets a place, having a less than whelming essay ripped to shreds, and discovering you’re a small fish in a big pond on a regular basis. If she can’t cope with being told by one person she’s not good enough, and dealing with it by figuring out what she needs to get what she wants, then it’s not for her.

I know students who left an Open Day after the speeches because they didn't like the vibe. One went to Sheffield, is now doing her PhD with full funding and bursaries due to her undergrad results.

There are good unis out there outside Oxbridge and your SIL should do her homework what is achievable.

DD is at the same stage, she is predicted BBB but gets AAB on a regular basis so far. She doesn't even think about Oxbridge, she looks at unis offering the courses she wants and not a label.

A friend's DD is on paper an Oxbridge student but based on her personality she may not succeed in an interview because the girl can't sell herself. She may tick all boxes on paper but not in person. Parents should support but be realistic and encourage alternatives and differnt ways to carry on.

I am a teacher and private tutor.
You need a full set of 9s at GCSE for Oxbridge.
And all A or A* at A level.
People need a reality check.

I trust your judgement but I really hope that she does get in.

Tbh, I don't think it was your place to crush her hopes like that. You're family. She just wanted support and encouragement. The rejection from Oxford would have been hard on her, but not as hard as having your own family tell you you aren't good enough.
Exactly this. And I think people can say your sil was nuts to go off at you, but I think most of us would, even those who wouldn’t usually speak up or out. I can’t even imagine how your niece must have felt.

The thing that stood out for me in your first post was that you were miffed 'he lets her speak to you like that '.

If you didn't like the way she spoke to you you should have said something to her yourself.

It's not your brother's responsibility to monitor how his wife speaks to anyone.

I know I've missed the point of the thread. Oh well.

"They are definitely not the only criteria, particularly for Oxbridge as that is how they distinguish between candidates (they’ll all have A* grades"
I was talking about graduate study
I am an Oxbridge graduate and can tell you from years of experience they aren't looking particularly for extracurriculars for undergrad but a real interest in the subject - ideally going beyond A'levels, and reading/researching around.
But graduate student just have good degrees and an interest in an area where Oxbridge is a good fit or matches someone's research area.

I hate it when people do not manage their DCs expectations. It's like those parents who tell their kids they are amazing singers then the kids are surprised when Simon Cowell tells them they sound like a strangled cat!

I probably would have just been more factual and said TBH they are likely looking at all 9s GCSEs, and A*/As at A level so it might not be the best option but essentially she needs to know.

My friend DH was so pushy with her DD, pretty much forced her to apply to top unis which all needed similar grades as kept saying she'd get in, no lower options to fall back on. When she didn't get the A level grades she needed she had no place at uni. She eventually got a place somewhere but not what she could have done if she had been realistic.

No, they won't. Honestly. Passion, curiosity and the innate ability to challenge your own thinking is what they want.

Agree. I would add bags of energy to that list too.

My daughter got into Cambridge with 3 Bs the year before they changed to numbers.

They interviewed based on her personal statement, and her interview backed it up. They were impressed she'd done it herself and had no outside help.

She chose that uni cos it was the only one doing the course she wanted.

Always go for it if you really want it.