To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

I can't fathom why it's a brilliant idea to tell a kid not to TRY for something they really want! DN can apply and see what happens. It won't stop her going to another university.

Nothing wrong with pointing out the difficulty level, but for heaven's sake encourage her to get in there and give it her best! Did any of you read this week's 'Resilience' thread? Well, if you're all in favour of not even pushing kids to try where they may not succeed, I think I'm seeing how the problem arises

Back in my sixth form days (the Pleistocene), Cambridge offered me B,B,C to read linguistics & French. I had 7 average-to-poor O levels (it was that long ago!) I know everything's changed since then, but I'd been told to expect no offer or 3 As at best. I'm glad nobody suggested that was a reason not to even try!

Oxbridge undergrads are not a race of superhumans. To a large extent everyone who leaves school and starts afresh - in college, in university, in an apprenticeship, in the armed services, or in a job realises that they're in a much bigger pond and they're starting again at the bottom.

Thousands upon thousands of applicants get rejected from Oxbridge every hear. Hundreds of undergrads - even those from cosseted backgrounds where they have had private tutors - manage to deal just fine with the expectations and pressure of the big pond, and those who don't can always withdraw and start again somewhere else. It is not the big, special deal people here are making it out to be.

Most Oxbridge undergrads get there with the help and support of a great many boosters and supporters. Some have this support from schools where it is assumed the majority of the students will apply to RGs/Oxbridge, and some get there because a family member encouraged them to dream big or there was one teacher who thought it wouldn't hurt to be encouraging.

I know one Oxford graduate who went to a small rural vocational secondary school in Ireland - did the Leaving Cert - and decided to do the application process on the basis of "nothing ventured, nothing gained" and because she figured the application and possible interview process for Oxford would provide a unique experience with very little cost to her.

Who does the OP think she is to say to this young person that her potential is limited? And why? It is not her place to manage expectations. All she had to do was be tactful and remember that she is not the chair of the admissions committee.

When I was very young an older person told me that I should always pursue my dreams. She told me that other older people would deter me from doing so but I was to ignore them because they were only doing that because they had never followed their own dreams so didn’t want anyone else to either. I listened to the advice and secured my dream Job.

@PingvsPong Yeah, I know. I can apply for the CEO position at Google too but I have 7 GCSEs and never worked in tech before.

Maybe SIL has been pressuring DN unrealistically to go to Oxbridge, or that she’s a wunderkind and can get in…. Perhaps DN isn’t upset at all that you told her that she’s not a candidate, and she is possibly relieved. (Someone who had a pushy, over-invested mum.)

Of course she can apply with less than stellar grades. What happens after that is up to Oxford.

Even if you had encouraged her to apply her college would hopefully have talked sense into her that she would be basically wasting one of her UCAS choices not to mention a lot of time in jumping through all the hoops necessary in an Oxbridge application.

Your advice was correct and honest. It was only your opinion though, it’s not like you forced her to give up the idea. She can still apply if she wants and SIL wants & get rejected. If you get any further negativity from them I would change your stance and say if your niece really wants to try for Oxford, then do it but just understand that most people do get rejected (people with MUCH better academics added silently in your head).

(Don’t know how that gif got there btw but I’m on my phone & it’s early 😂)

My brother graduated with a First from Cambridge and his school IB grades weren't that stellar. He didn't even tell anyone he applied to Cambridge and just told us when he got in.

Probably echoing what other pps have said, but...

Excellent grades are really just 'base camp' in most cases. Yes, sometimes colleges make a low offer but you'd have to be exceptional at interview.

I think older teenagers ought to be able to take frank advice if they've asked for it. Don't buy into the guilt tripping of 'crushing her dreams'. If she's that insecure, she wouldn't cope at Oxford!!

I knew of a girl of very average achievements whose parents had been able to send her to a private (but not particularly academic) school. They insisted, against the school's advice, that she apply to Oxford. The poor girl came back from her interview traumatised, wouldn't emerge from her room for a week and returned to school a very different person. It's really not for everyone.

I agree with the pp who suggested saying to her 'OK, you do the research as to admission criteria, admission stats etc' and then make a decision. This would be a good strategy because if she isn't up to doing this herself without input from you she certainly wouldn't be Oxford or Cambridge material.

You were absolutely fair. Kids these days need honesty, not this false "oh of course darling you can do and be anything you want to be!!". I knew of a pair of sisters in my crappy state school, their parents were both teachers, and every single half term and holiday without fail they stayed in and were tutored endlessly by their parents, day in and day out. They each got As across the board (at least something crazy like 12), and both got in. They were just normal, average intelligence girls who just worked damned hard and sacrificed their childhood, but they got in. I also had a friend at my uni who was very smart, As across the board, and he didn't get in. Oxford told him "we don't think we'd be a good fit for you". The girls were middle class white girls, he was London Chinese from a poorer background, and back then it was more biased towards kids from a "better" background. It's entirely possible your neice could get in, but it sounds like she simple doesn't have the will power and dedication to study and sacrifice her current life to do it.

I should add I went to the other uni on Oxford (the non-famous, non-"Oxford" one), and it was renowned from the "failed" kids that when you went to interviews, for some colleges there were additional "sneak" tests - for one of the colleges, they invited the prospectives applicants to a collective dinner, and served cherries - they would fail them based on how they disposed of the cherry pips (ie - manners. "How refined are you?"). It was pretty insane. Hopefully that's changed now haha.

I more or less agree with this. It really isn't up to you to tell her she couldn't get in and you should have known it would upset her - all you had to do was look at the likelihood with her in terms of applications vs acceptance and required grades and discuss what she'd need to do to attain those grades. Then having (presumably) concluded together the very slim possibility of getting in, talk about postgrad and make sure she has a plan B, C, D for undergrad that she would also be happy with.

Late to this thread, but am assuming she is in year 12 as applications for sept are closed now on UCAS?

So, there is time to get her grades up but I think you were right to encourage her to be realistic. Oxbridge interviews/application processes are brutal and not geared to bring out the best in applicants who are ND or have dyslexia - and she will be competing against candidates with 10-12 grade 7-9s (A-A*) at GCSE and predicted 3-4 A/A at A level. You clearly know this but mum doesn’t want to hear it.

Depending upon the subject, there may be much plenty of Russell Group unis with more contemporary modules and, more significantly, much better pastoral/student support. Oxbridge has a shocking reputation for the latter. It is more important she goes to a uni where she likes the course content, will have great tutors and student support - ie a higher chance of getting a 2:1 or 1st - than she goes to a university because her mum can flex over it.

OP I think you were very wise - I know of many Oxbridge drop outs and many who failed to get in but thrived in RG unis. Mum needs to consider what she thinks a place at Oxbridge actually means for her daughter.

This was years ago but I always remember a classmate announcing he could have got into Oxford as xxx had. Well actually no he couldn't because unlike xxx he did not apply.

The only certain way to not get into Oxbridge is to not apply. Anyone else has a chance - maybe remote, maybe they will have to work harder and maybe they will be disappointed - but at least they will have tried.

Yanbu

There are enough straight-A students to fill every oxbridge course several times over. There are loads of straight-A students who don't get in. Someone who isn't on target for straight As shouldn't bother unless they qualify for a contextual offer

You're a tutor?

Seriously?

Lettuce Liz lacks intellect.

If you don't really get on with your SIL then there was always a danger of upsetting her. I'd have kept it pretty bland with your niece and just shown her the grades most people need to get in and then mentioned it to your SIL - 'niece says she wants to go to Oxford, so for that most people need 3-4 As' or whatever. And then leave it up to them* to draw their own conclusions and to consult with your niece's school.

I went to Oxford and my cousin went to Cambridge. We both say Oxbridge to refer to the two collectively, as does everyone I know... We even used to call the X2 bus that runs from Oxford to Cambridge via Milton Keynes the Oxbridge Express...

Boris hasn’t got common sense but he does have intellect. They aren’t the same thing. I know Oxford dons who have redefined areas of academia but couldn’t book a train ride to London ( well, needed help and direction!)

I think the problem with the dream big comments is that, while I’m not against that line of thought, unless the DN has a tangible plan ( ie has very high iq and knows she hadn’t been applying herself and is now determined to etc) the process makes that kind of gamble a waste of a UCAS choice. Also, many applicants don’t get to interview so there is no point hanging everything on somehow astonishing them at that point. And fabulous interviews are given by very bright students. Not people who spit cherry stones the right way, as someone suggested above.( There are no such apocryphal tests).

One of the most helpful things now is to come from a group that there is a push to have better represented there.

I think this has been a case of “ shoot the messenger OP.”

I’m not sure why you took on the role of messenger, especially as there seem to be tensions between you and SIL anyway. I can’t help but get the sense you two are using it to have a bit of a go at each other and are each putting yourselves and your emotions in the middle of what is really DN’s disappointment ( ie; her saying DN will do it to spite you; you saying you are angry with DB that he “let her” speak to you that way etc) . Poor DN seems caught in the middle of the pair of you wanting to inflict blows on each other.

I’d have told her to get guidance from school as you “would be biased” or something thing like that. But it’s said now, and I think you are probably quite right about the outcome.

You might be surprised. That type sometimes open up beautifully in interview once they get into the academic style questions. The “chit chat” is really just there to settle them ( and some aren’t much settled by it actually, and do better with some proper knotty questions to sink their teeth into). They aren’t looking for tv personalities, and I think sometimes people misconstrue what the interview is looking for.

OP responded in person to a question DN asked her directly, relying on her professional experience. DN appeared to take it well and may in fact have been matter of fact in the way she told her parents that she would probably not be including Oxbridge in her choices.

My inference here is that SiL is the one that is wanting her child to apply and has been selling that narrative at home - unrealistic given DN did not get grades 7-9s in GCSEs other than Music. Even children with accommodations for ASD, dyslexia etc (lap top, extra time in exams) can get high grades - I know several who do - so there is no leeway or ‘excusing’ C-B/5-6 Grades, unless a contextual offer is a possibility and has been couched by school.

Those advocating that she should apply anyway, how is that supposed to work?

You need to have predicted grades per the prospectus (or meet the requirements for a contextual offer) to get an offer from any university.

If her GCSEs are Bs and Cs and work submitted is at a B level, her teachers aren’t going to predict As.

Of course it’s possible to apply again after A levels, but I don’t think that is what is being suggested.