To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

It would be a DPhil if done at Oxford.

Well Im sure there are many who will find Zyq’s DNiece’s take extremely consoling.

The study is about using GCSE results to predict future performance at A-levels, rather than whether teachers' predictions are more generous in private schools when they make predictions for university admissions.

Even as a tutor, it was unwise to tell her she had no chance. It's not exactly encouraging and I would have been annoyed if you had said the same to my daughter. There are some tings we have to find out for ourselves, without someone crushing our hopes before we even try.

I think you may have got this from the other end of that horse, rather than its mouth!

Nothing unreasonable in what you said.
My son went to a local Grammar school and then on to a highly selective 6th Form in Newham which is known for regularly sending its pupils to Oxbridge and even to top American Universities such as MIT, Princeton etc often on full scholarship.
They have dedicated programmes for Oxbridge and US applications.
Many of my son's fellow students applied to these top Unis, only a small fraction of these kids got in.

Slightly off-topic but the Well, l'll show YOU! narrative can be a bit dodgy too -

Long ago and far away a tutor l liked and respected told me the high profile art school l was hell-bent on getting into would be a terrible fit for my personality and skill set. I thought he ment l wasn't good enough and set out to prove him wrong. I did get in but it turned out he was quite right about the course content and it was rather a waste of three years!

far points would the issue be that some are told they are oxbridge material and then given the necessary tutoring to get to oxbridge only to then realise that the engine they were using for their studies actually needs major upgrades to handle oxbridge workload so to speak ?

thats if im making sense

Are we assuming the tutoring is top notch?

She said she might think about post grad studies, which in the circumstances is pretty encouraging.

I think there seems to be some misunderstanding of the timings of the application process on this thread.

UCAS applications are submitted at the beginning of the second year of A levels , if you include Oxford or Cambridge (January if not). You need to already have evidence to demonstrate why you are a suitable candidate for an interview/offer, and with no A at GCSE in chosen subjects and average Bs in first year of sixth form, that just doesn’t exist.

That doesn’t mean she can’t get As in her A levels, but she would then have to take a year out and apply again.

Surely this argument could easily be resolved by finding out what the minimum requirements are for the subject DN wishes to apply for. If she has high enough GCSE and predicted grades, then SinLaw has a point - why not have a go? She could learn a lot simply from the process of applying and preparing for interview. If she doesn't have high enough grades to be called for interview then OP isn't giving her opinion - simply stating a fact. So it's unreasonable for SinLaw to get upset.

Since you’re her teacher too you are not being unreasonable. If you were just auntie then you would have been over stepping a bit. Maybe your SIL has blurred these lines.

I think op has blurred the lines. She is an auntie who has volunteered to tutor her niece. Therefore the academic responsibility to counsel niece about whether or not she can apply to Oxford lies with her actual teachers.

The op said her DN’s parents asked her to be their daughter’s tutor.

Quite rightly so .
Oxford and Cambridge are not easy schools to get into .
Most teachers can tell who is suitable for these schools .
I know from experience and very unlikely to get in to a child getting B's and the odd A or C
you have to be naturally gifted , and definitely be a consistent A , A* grade .
Note my use of naturally gifted because they conduct their own entrance tests and interviews so no matter how many A, A you get ,
they want to know how you think .

I assumed this meant that the aunt's tuition is in addition to DN's school work. I probably made the assumption because I have voluntarily tutored my friends children over the years. In that capacity I am always clear that I work I do with their kids is merely supplemental to their schoolwork. I always defer to their teachers.

Really? When I was at school I had tutors that were not related to me. My parents would have expected them to answer my questions (or theirs) honestly & fairly when it came to my capabilities & expectations. I would have thought the same would have applied in this situation.

The days of offers of lower than AAA for Oxford and AAA for Cambridge are long gone. Those given a 3 A offer are the sort of candidate who will achieve much higher. Some courses are less competitive (roughly 50% of applicants get in for Theology, fewer than 18% for Philosophy and Theology at Oxford). Two of my sons (who are both state school educated) applied for Oxford. One of them received an offer of AAA but achieved 3As. My other son applied post-A Level with two A*s and an A and didn’t even get an interview. Standards are very high.

Every student for the same course at Oxford is made the same offer if they are made an offer.. Some courses are AAA, others are AAA.

Well it used to be the super talented got the "FF". They wanted you so badly that they didn't care about your A levels.

Because of entrance exam?

Yea. And the interview. This is obviously years ago, but the FF candidate invariably either totally smashed their A levels or went down in flames because of their intransigent mindset. A particular kind of Oxbridge brilliance.

True. First son made an offer of AAA, as was everyone on his course. Second son applying post-ALevel with two A stars and an A so ‘offer’ not applicable but was rejected without interview. Can’t have done well on entrance exam.

In the past, most applicants were selected mainly on the basis of an entrance exam. If you did well on that (and in interview, and had done well in O levels), you received an unconditional offer- in a sense, the entrance exam substituted for A levels. The entrance exam was eventually abolished, mainly because it advantaged pupils who went to schools that were experienced in preparing pupils for this somewhat 'niche' exam (i.e. mostly private and top grammar schools). Nowadays, applicants are given offers conditional on A levels, except for the few who apply post- A level.

Think we are getting off-topic here. It matters not what Oxbridge are accepting. She is not ready to go yet. OP shut her down, and smashed her aspirations. It has been known with extra help - which she SHOULD have been providing - for suddenly the light to go on. My own DD was struggling with a specific math section at 13 (I scraped GCE), but just talking through with her and re-reading the instructions, and asking questions - it clicked and off she went, leaving me well behind literally in days, all the way to her A level and on to her degree.
You really never know.

The anomalies here to me are the curious fixation on one single, particular university, to the exclusion of all others, and the blame being heaped upon one aunt for 'dashing a kid's dreams' by uttering one, reasonable, fact-based opinion.

What is it about Oxford, and Oxford alone, that can fulfil the girl's hopes and dreams? It seems to me that anyone pinning their lifetime ambitions on attending one particular institution is unreasonable, and says a lot more about fantasy, daydream and delusion rather than having reasonable and rational aims.

Then we have the SIL calling up to 'shout' to say the aunt had 'crushed her dreams'. The SIL is just as much in La-la land. Since when did failure to get into one college 'crush anyone's dreams'? There are other colleges.

All the aunt did was to give an honest opinion. What about the opinion of other educational professionals?

The choices available to a young person are legion. Rabid obsession with one particular institution has more to do with misplaced notions of prestige and acute status anxiety and snobbery from a parent who wishes to validate their own sense of failure, financial, social and academic by achieving standing in society by achieving it through their offspring. Seen it dozens of times.