To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

Kids can be very touchy about such things. As a lecturer, I have advised kids about applying to art school, it's the same thing.
I'd never discourage anyone from trying, but I would put the facts plainly before them about success rates and the grades normally required so they could see for themselves how big the challenge was.

The other thing I would point out is that Oxford is not right for everyone, even if they are straight 'A' students. I have known some people be deeply unhappy there -and I mean deeply in the most dangerous sense. Collegiate places like Oxford/Cambridge fit some people, but not others. I know I'd have absolutely loathed it, I'm the redbrick type. I have friends who went to O/C and loved it. You have to know yourself first, and think through what you want and need. IMO it's not a place for those who lack self-knowledge and/or a well-adjusted and solidly balanced personality.

I also always told kids that if you don't get in somewhere you apply, then you'd probably not have been happy there- admissions tutors tend to recognise who will fit in and who won't- if you won't, rejecting your application is doing you a favour. (and note, I say rejecting your application, not rejecting you). But in my subject, back then you always got an interview- of course, it's not the same if they never see you.

I would have taken a slightly less personally targeted approach.

Looked at grade profiles of those who do get offers. Then asked if she felt she could make it?

They get 5 choices so, if she thought she could, she could apply and then push herself to make the grade.

You weren't unreasonable given what you know about her but personal knocks are often taken badly.

She won't get in with those grades.

When I said extracurricular I was thinking stuff like relevant work experience/ things that show passion for the subject. Not sports or that kind of thing. Worded it badly.

I'm not convinced you know much about it. The school/college should be really up on applying to colleges at Oxford and Cambridge- applications, expected grades, personal statements, interviews.

I really really hate this idea that oxbridge or RG universities are the automatic best option for everyone. it really depends on the individual and what they want to achieve and what stage of life they are in. putting someone in a high pressure, academic environment might be great for some but toxic for others.

your niece could flourish in another educational establishment and go onto achieve great things. perhaps that could include oxbridge some day as you suggested. but her mum making a drama out of this will only make her feel worse and feel like she had failed if she doesn't get into oxbridge or rg uni (which she probably won't with those grades)

wish parents would stop putting their preconceptions about these these things on their children.

Because in this case you are wrong. Those you personally know irl may not use it, but plenty of other people do. I studied at one of them and I do. Loads of my friends from both of them also do. There are multiple people on this thread saying the same thing. It is factually wrong that NOONE who went to Oxford or Cambridge says Oxbridge, or is snooty about it.

I see nothing wrong with the term. It has obvious uses.

Integrity is doing the right thing even when it's difficult. You wouldn't have been doing your neice any favours by giving her false hope. If she wants to prove you wrong by working hard enough to get the grades , so be it but it's my understanding that there's no such thing as guaranteed acceptance in a year where grades are high

SIL is pissed because it’s HER dream. Who wouldn’t want to boast their child is at Oxford?!

I don’t understand how she ever thought of applying with those grades. Is she a member of the royal family?

Agreed. Insiders say Oxford if they mean Oxford, Cambridge if they mean Cambridge and Oxbridge if they mean both Oxford and Cambridge.

Hopefully your words will motivate her to do better. That’s what happened to me when my grandparents told me that I’d never earn a degree because I’m not clever enough. Here I am 30 years later with 2 ba(Hons), 2 masters and a PhD.

They still have never congratulated me or even acknowledged my education. Old farts.

Why’s she so determined for Oxford anyway?

I think you were being UN I’m afraid op for three reasons:

~ I think the familial relationship should have taken precedence over the tutor relationship in her case.

~ There was no need to say definitively that she won’t get in. You could have simply laid out what the necessary grades are without making any judgments about her.

~ It wasn’t your job to do this, it was overstepping, and if I was the parent I’d be upset with you too.

~ You should always encourage and never say no. Some students can really focus and put real effort in once they know what they are aiming at.

I don’t think you were unreasonable at all.

Sounds like you have a great relationship with her and she values your opinion. At 17(?) she’s almost an adult, and if she asks a straight question she should be given a straight answer.

She only gets 5 application slots- I’d rather be brought down to earth with a bit of a bump and move on rather than waste 1+ of those slots on a pipe dream.

That’s just not true. I can know several students who got in with lower GCSEs than 8/9, some were from state schools, not all.

Yes they do. If talking to a sixth former who hasn't yet decided which of the two they're applying to, it's absolutely how they're referred to.

My daughter's state school had a specialist teacher who ran a lunchtime Oxbridge candidates group. He had been a tutor at Cambridge before he took this role, and as a parent of a pupil in his group I can confirm that he referred to Oxbridge throughout the session that he ran for parents.

Liz Truss went to Oxford, the university, not the city, as did Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock and Jacob Rees Mogg. None of them strike me as having any depth of intellect...

I would genuinely love it if she got in and I would be so proud of her. I will be proud of her no matter where she goes really, just hope it’s the right fit. I don’t know why, and frankly this is the first time she’s ever mentioned it. She has mentioned others that have entry requirements ranging from BBC-AAB, and there’s a couple she’s mentioned a few times that she seems keen on.

It's not just the grades. You have to love the subject and it has to show, probably in ways that mean you are thinking and considering it in a much deeper way that most at about 18.

Oxbridge attracts students who are very intense about their subjects and can handle that intensity because it is very competitive. It is a particular sort of education.

The tests are to see if you can handle the system and the challenges. Then there is sometimes a tutorial interview to see if your face fits. Would you be interesting for three years?

This is not about grades or whether you did the Duke of Edinburgh award. They don't give a damn about that. They want raw brains who like a lot of challenge.

A few top grades is not enough. If you don't like being challenged regularly on your work then it is not for you.

Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that

I'm sorry but what?
Does she have to get permission from him to speak?

Everyone in your story is right to express themselves.
Think it fine that your family can be free to speak.

Now go and have a fun time at a water slide park or feeding the ducks on the pond or whatever.

I think all of these people are tossers.

However they are not stupid in the sense they could meet the particular challenges of Oxbridge style education. It is challenging. And that's very good for political careers. You get a rhino hide.

If she is interested in Oxford then get her to look at summer schools, masterclasses and supracurriculars ie books, articles, podcasts, guest lecturers talking about her chosen subject. It isn't listing these but what she learned from them, what interested her and where it led ie what did she research next?

She would also need to look at the entrance exams, so ELAT for English or HAT for history, she would also need to submit a piece of her work along with her application.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/admission-requirements/admission-requirements-table

She can use her previous tests and ask her teachers specifically how to raise the grade on that paper so she learns for the next time. Getting into either Oxford or Cambridge statistically is difficult so even those on 4 A star predictions and mostly 9s at GCSE will still be rejected. This can either motivate her or wound her. Motivation wise, the higher the grades she gets the more doors are open to her in her choice of university. She can spend this summer working on improving her grades as she will have the 6 week holidays.

They don't really care about your Saturday job but do care about the skills you learn from it. If memory serves from my child applying in the last few years they suggest 2 sentences at the bottom of the personal statement.

We're going to come back to this thread in a year's time, when OP's niece hasn't got in.

Realistically a B student probably won’t get into Oxford. Unless they are significantly gifted in something else…like rowing :-) you were absolutely right to correct/manage her expectations.

I believe in encouraging our kids but I also believe in being realistic. My niece got all 9’s at GCSE and highest grades in her A levels and even then we were all very cautious about her chances because Oxford is not just about grades but about how you’ll fit in to the college, the course and how you’ll mesh with the other students they have chosen for that year. Thankfully she got in but we definitely didn’t spend all our time saying ‘you’ll definitely get in’.