To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

Really? That’s not my experience.

She has been getting support at college and to be fair to the school they did get her some help for her GCSEs. She has a laptop to type on in class now and that’s made a world of difference - she struggled a lot in her first term of A levels and now she’s kind of settled in and started getting consistent grades.
A big part of her problem is she struggles to engage in things that don’t interest her and this means there’s some areas her knowledge is lacking. This is part of the reason I think (and hope) she will do really well at uni when she can have more academic freedom. She can also sometimes be a bit lazy, but that’s changing and she is a teenager after all.

Well, it is mine, and I know a fair few alumnae and current lecturers at both universities.

Genuinely curious, how does a doctor give you an illness?

I'm a careers adviser and speak weekly, if not daily to young people who want to go to University and often through in Oxbridge as if it's just something they might fancy... as adults we know this simply isn't the case. As previous posters have said, I think you've upset SIL more than niece. Young people often have completely misinformed views about Oxbridge and just say it because they thinks it's "the best"... why did she want to go there out of interest?

Land economy and Theology are unlikely to land you a lucrative career

I went to one, taught at one, and regularly use the term Oxbridge - I work in a professional context where the term is widely used and I have never heard it queried as 'silly and ignorant'.

Used to work for an Oxbridge college, including doing admissions for history (not the world's most demanding subject, tbh). The whole process seemed bonkers to me, but the admissions tutor certainly was looking for As and A*s, not Bs with some As. So you were simply factually right.

That said - my impression was that for some of the MPhil courses, expectations were way lower. The MPhil I taught on had some pretty weak students, though they tended to be American, which meant that their transcripts were different anyway and they paid overseas fees, an incentive to let them in.

If her parents can find the money for one of these 9-month MPhils, she would certainly get the Oxbridge experience and perhaps get a bit of networking done. Though nothing like the undergrads.

One of the higher-ups at my college (whose own subject didn't have an MPhil) once referred to the MPhils derisorily as a 'finishing school'; they attract wealthy overseas students who want an Oxbridge certificate on their wall. But I certainly worked hard to supervise my MPhil students and the MPhil courses I knew anything about were good.

Well, if you say so.

I don't think you were unreasonable but on the other hand I went to Oxford and studied History. I have very average GCSEs (only 1 A) and at this point in my Y12 I'm sure none of my teachers would have thought it was even a possibility. My lower sixth mocks results shocked them - I came top in all my subjects. My head of sixth form and parents really encouraged me to give it a try.

It wasn't something that I'd even considered till then but I'm so glad I went there. The feedback I got from entrance exams and the interview was that it was all about academic potential- especially if you are from a state school. Not everyone who goes is all 9s and A*S. Things may well have changed in 30 years though!

Frankly it was none of your business to interfere in this way and her mother is perfectly right to be extremely angry.

All you had to say is advise her to get her grades up if she wanted to stand a chance.

She is perfectly entitled to have a go at it.

You telling her she is not good enough and never will be is unacceptable.

I would wonder if you don't have an agenda here for wanting her to fail.

I can confirm that this is absolutely wrong. We look at no extracurriculars and they don’t factor in at all, in any subject - we ignore them entirely. Academic ability and potential in the subject are the only considerations.

We also can tell if pupils have been coached. This will not help and may actually significantly hinder them - save your money!

OP, you were not unreasonable at all!

The realities of getting into Oxbridge are pretty harsh. It's cruel to tell a child they can have something they cannot have.

You did what a tutor would do and told her the truth. Sometimes the truth isn't nice to hear.

Impressive. You upped your game. I didn't.

Like you I also only got one A (Accounts, and basically got it by working my backside off over the weekend prior to the exam), with seven Bs and two Cs. I struggled badly in terms of motivation to the point I asked my mum to give me incentives (she tried, but nothing would get through, and my brother (straight As at A level, and almost all As in GCSEs) said she was wasting her time as you can't make someone work if they aren't willing). Accounts was different though as I was interested in it, plus I did like the teacher (I recall telling him I was going to have my head in the books over the aforementioned weekend, to which he rolled his eyes...that was in June, and when I next saw him in September he smiled at me in amazement and the first thing he said was something like "so you did work over that weekend").

What OP may have done is given her niece the motivation she needs. Whether that will be enough for Oxford (which let's face it, is the most prestigious university of them all) is another matter.

At post grad level it’s almost purely academic in focus. At that point you are getting fairly focused and top end academically and will get increased interaction with world class experts in the subject. They really couldn’t care less if you play the xylophone or throw the javelin. They want someone with exceptional capability and interest in the subject.

@LovelyTheresa my dh went to Oxford and he refers to Oxbridge when discussing them

You've had several people now including someone who worked there contradicting you

Frankly it was none of your business to interfere in this way

She didn't interfere - the girl asked her.

You telling her she is not good enough and never will be is unacceptable.

But she didn't tell her she never will be good enough, did she. She said that in a few years time, when she has developed her academic skills, she might have a good chance of being accepted for a Masters.

I would wonder if you don't have an agenda here for wanting her to fail.

What a twisted way of thinking. Do you go around 'wanting people to fail'? If not, why do you think someone else would?

Too angry schools goad kids into applying so they can state such in their stats. Yanbu she has no chanc e

@xsquared they really don't give a rats arse about extra curricular activities. People thinking DofE or county hockey will help are naive

Selection is made by academics. All they care about is who is going to be good to teach and who might be future academics

They do. I know loads.

Plus we’re talking about postgrad here. I didn’t even have an interview for my master’s.

Dh went to Cambridge, and at sixth form overheard one of his teachers tell FIL that dh should apply to Oxbridge. As dh hadn't heard of Oxford and Cambridge being blended in this way, he was very tempted at the time to "correct" his teacher and tell them "Don't you mean Oxford?" 😁

And he'd have been right! I don't care about the people who claim to know 'loads' of people who go to Oxford and Cambridge and call it Oxbridge. It just isn't something that insiders do. People on this site always have to be so contrary.

Crikey, how many of you with such definite knowledge about a child have actually been to Oxford.
Never say never, encourage her. It's impossible to get into Oxford.

*not