To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

You set her a realistic expectation. End of. You didn’t blow smoke up her backside and were truthful.

I would never have said this to a student and would never agree to tutor family either.

If she actually wants to make an application, she needs to be taken through what that looks like and what she needs to do from this point.

It's up to her to make the determination of whether she can find the motivation and focus to do this.

My tuppence worth:

The entire focus here seems to be on getting in, and not what happens when she's actually there for 3+ years.

(A bit like when a Disney film ends at the wedding being the 'happily ever after' without ever thinking of the reality of marriage being the harder bit to come!)

Even if you were the most brilliant brain at your whole school, that's a very small pond. Oxford is a totally different story. If you've just about scraped in, the experience can be brutal. Mental health issues are rife, not to mention the weird dynamic and tribalism of being from a state school when you're surrounded by kids with the fanciest educations money can buy. It's lonely. You need a very thick skin, and the ability to work independently with little to no support from your tutors. It's sink or swim, and they're not set up to save you if you sink.

I am grateful every day for the opportunity to go to Oxford, but if I had my time again, I'd choose a university with a greater focus on teaching and supporting students. I think I would have got a more balanced education and better results and job prospects, rather than just the momentary prestige of 'getting in'.

You are not being unreasonable at all. Most experienced teachers can tel the ability of a child they know and have been teaching
.I would rather you tell her the truth of it was my child .

You behaved with honesty and professionalism. You have absolutely nothing to feel bad about.
Being disappointed sometimes, feeling upset sometimes, not being able to follow your dreams sometimes, well, that's just a part of life.
It's sounds like you're the first person in the family to be honest and realistic with your neice.
And they're not taking it well, nor in the spirit it was meant. That's not your fault.

You can only apply to 5 courses, so it is a waste to apply for a course if you don’t have the GCSEs and predicted grades that would give them a reason to invite for interview/make an offer.

The OP works as a tutor, so presumably that is why she was asked for advice, but anyone with recent or current experience of the U.K. university applications system is unlikely to give different advice.

It’s not that she can never ever study a course at Oxford or that she can’t get very good A levels. The problem is that applications are based on evidence available before exams are taken.

She won’t get in with c’s and b’s therefore you are not being honest. But frankly oxbridge is not the Bee-all and end-all. My DS is in Oxbridge (all ALevel A*s )(he loves it but it is all academic very little play, I do wonder if he would have benefited more if he was at Durham.

You didn't tell her she couldn't apply you just advised her that from your professional experience she wouldn't get in with the grades she currently has. What she chooses to do with that is up to her. You never know it might spur her on even more.
I remember having a meeting with the careers coach in school when I was 17. I really wanted to be a fashion designer. He told me to rethink my career plan and to be more realistic, suggested teaching. But it only made me more determined and I went on to live my dream and be a fashion designer. I'm somewhat grateful to all those that told me it would never happen because it made me work even harder to prove them wrong. I don't think which university you go to makes a big difference to how successful you become. It's often more to do with passion, network, determination and being in the right place at the right time.

You were fair. My DD attained all 4 A's at A level. She applied for a Cambridge degree and was turned down. She went to a local public school and I think she may have faired better with Cambridge if she had been at the more well known public schools or had the same qualifications at a state school. My mistake paying for a public school education I now realise. On the plus side, she is a lovely, well rounded and totally adorable person despite "attending" Uni during lockdown :)

I think previous posters have made a good point about looking beyond just getting in somewhere prestigeous - it needs to be a good fit once you're there, or it can be an utterly miserable three years!

You sound like a brilliant aunty with the best intentions. Didn't deserve to be shouted at. But I think you were being a bit unreasonable because never say never to a young person. It could have been a 'if you want to apply to Oxford this is what you need to do to get there and be really detailed I.e. study x amount more hours, do x amount of extra curricular etc etc explain that her previous grades may hold her back and what she should do to mitigate that. Encourage her to apply and support her completely. Then if she doesn't get in she still would have learned so much from pushing herself and going the extra mile and working to the best of her ability. As they say aim for the top and if you get just below then that is much better than aiming for the middle ground. So much can be learned from trying your very best and then failing. But so much can also be gained from 'proving people wrong' aswell lol. Hope things get sorted between you and SIL as it is clear you meant no harm and care for your niece very much.

But that just isn’t how the offers process works.

You see , I went into a careers talk with the stupid idea of becoming a raf pilot (not a hope in hell) to his credit my advisor didn’t make me feel stupid , didn’t tell me I wouldn’t get in, he just explained about what I’d need to join.

to be fair I think there are a lot of better universities than Oxford and Cambridge as a pp eluded Durham is one

i do get what op was trying to tell her niece but she went about it completely wrong, don’t be surprised if your relationship with your niece is damaged by this

Personally, I wouldn't recommend either Oxford or Cambridge for a 'normal' person. 3 x 8 week terms is very intense. My partner went to Cambridge and had a fairly horrible time. I did postgraduate there and loved it. If you're mega rich/went to private school/thrive on intense work load maybe. There's a lot of keeping up with the Joneses stuff going on. A good red brick first, then postgrad is more manageable and fun in my experience.

YABU

She asked you if she should apply
not if she would get in
I think you could have let it run its course. said it was really challenging and up to her to research it more and that you’re not an expert etc. (assume your not in admission at Oxford or her school)
then she could have been told by her tutors at school or the college itself if it got that far.

To stop her at the first hurdle based on an arms length knowledge of her performance is not ideal and not really your place. You over stepped and should have move the conversation on rather than been so definitive.

I don't think you were unreasonable. Just giving her the benefit of your advice.

Given her grades and GCSEs How do you think she is going to get an offer?

I wouldn’t go to Oxford if I had my time again. You do have to be exceptional in your subject, not just a hard worker. You have to have initiative to do your own research- not be told what to read. But I floundered there as a state school student and I haven’t had a stellar career upon leaving. The support wasn’t there for kids like me.

Extra-curricular activities including rowing form no part of Oxford or Cambridge's admissions.

I have been a sixth form tutor at a successful independent school for 10 years. Your advice was a good reality check so long as it was delivered sensitively, which it sounds like it was.
Having been to advice sessions run by Admissions tutors, Oxbridge don’t care at all about extra-curricular. They worry that outside interests will distract you from your subject. If all you like to do is sit in your room reading obscure, Anglo-Saxon poetry that’s fine by them. Durham or St Andrews will be interested in you being Head Girl or playing county hockey. Oxbridge will only be interested in A*s and proven fascination for your subject.

Everyone who is made an offer by Oxford for a particular subject is required to get the same grades in that offer.

Oxford rank all applicants for a particular subject by their best 8 or in some subjects 9 GCSE grades in part of the process of deciding who to interview.
Cambridge to the best of my knowledge do not use GCSE grades in the selection process.

And yet time and time again on MN we hear people saying it's private school kids who flounder at uni as they were 'spoon fed' at school and have no idea how to self motivate

Again someone suggesting it's easier if you went to private school which goes against the standard MN rhetoric that private school kids were spoon fed so flounder at a tough uni.

Maybe you could have said, you can but you will need to put in an exceptional amount of work now. Rather than setting an impossibility, as while that might be likely, is crushing